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Jay Flemma

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2019, 01:56:41 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on October 24, 2019, 06:28:43 AM
Quote from: Jay Flemma on October 18, 2019, 03:28:24 PM
First I saw Tom Doak's wonderful restoration and renovation work at Hollywood. I love how they asked him if he wanted his name on the scorecard with all the other designers and - according to legend - he said something along the lines of "No take every one else name off except Travis's."



Jay,


Confirmation.  :D



Thanks Mike. Nice to see you. It's been a long time:)
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2019, 02:12:07 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on October 24, 2019, 11:39:16 AM
MCirba -

I am not familiar with the history of Deal GC (although my mother taught at Deal Elementary School, which was adjacent to Deal GC, for several years in the 1960's :) ). I was not aware a portion of the land Hollywood acquired when it moved to Deal in 1912-13 held holes that were part of the Deal GC course.

Do we know who designed the first Hollywood course in West End/Long Branch in the 1890's? I grew up within a quarter mile of that property.

DT


Sven,


Thanks for that article, as well.


David Tepper,


If you look at an aerial photo you'll notice that the first three holes at Deal run counter-clockwise from the clubhouse, going north on 1 along Golf Road, west on 2 along Roseld Ave., cross Monmouth Rd, and continue along Roseld for the third.


Your holes 16, 14, and 15 were their 4th, 5th, and 6th.  These holes were part of a nine hole addition by R.B. Wilson at Deal around 1899, extending the original Van Etten nine hole course to 18 I believe by incorporating land west of Monmouth Road.


Make sense?
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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 02:27:43 PM »
MCirba -

Since I know very, very little of the Deal GC property (other than its boundaries) or the routing of the course, I can't follow/visualize what you are saying. In my time, the Deal GC course was separated by a busy road (Monmouth Road). How many holes of the current course are west of Monmouth Road?


Are you saying there were once Deal GC holes west of Roseld Ave. as well? That would mean Deal GC once had 2 fairly busy roads running thru it, although I am not sure how busy those roads were in the early 1900's.   


DT
   




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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 10:08:45 PM »
David Tepper,


I'll try to post an aerial pic tomorrow to help explain, thanks.
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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 10:40:42 PM »
MCirba -
Please don't go to any trouble. My interest in this thread is primarily due to my growing up in the area and  being on the Hollywood property 6 days a week for 4 summers. Who actually designed what and when is a matter of curiosity much more than really needing to know.
If you have an aerial photo (or map) of the original Hollywood course in West End, that would certainly be worth seeing,

DT 
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2019, 10:51:18 AM »
David Tepper,


No trouble at all.  Excuse my crude numbering but here you can see that the old Deal course used your holes 16, 14, and 5 as their 4, 5, and 6 before selling land to your club in 1912.


Those holes were originally created clrca 1899 by R.B. Wilson, a golf pro hired by Deal.


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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2019, 11:42:34 AM »
MCirba -

Thanks for that photo. It does seem odd that Deal GC would have built their course crossing 2 roads when there is that large wooded area immediately to the left of the group of holes built west of Monmouth Road. But as I mentioned earlier, there was probably not a whole lot of traffic on those roads in 1900.

Out of more curiosity, do you know which of the holes in the current Deal GC replaced the 3 holes lost to Hollywood?

DT   


« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 11:48:09 AM by David_Tepper »
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2019, 11:51:13 AM »
David Tepper,


Unfortunately, I don't know that but may do a bit of digging this weekend as time permits.  I'll let you know anything I find.


By the way, it appears that R.B. Wilson was from St. Andrew's and came to the states in 1896 to become pro at Shinnecock before coming to Deal in 1899. 
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2019, 12:55:26 PM »
David Tepper,


Found this courtesy of a prior Jim Kennedy post;


We should be able to piece the puzzle together from here.




http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/12782279585_1a8230d4ca_o.jpg
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 01:03:05 PM by MCirba »
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Joe Bausch

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2019, 01:38:51 PM »
Here is that map above but rotated (clickable to a larger size!):



And here is the current hole-sequencing at Deal (clickable to a larger size):


« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 02:15:00 PM by Joe Bausch »
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2019, 02:21:32 PM »
Thanks for the assist, Joe!
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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2019, 03:59:46 PM »
Joe B. -

Yes, thanks for making the two versions of the course easier to understand. We will probably never know why the decision was made to build those 3 holes across Roseld Avenue when it looks like there was plenty of room to build all 18 holes on the two larger parcels of land on either side on Monmouth Ave. Some questions probably don't need to be answered and that is one of them. :)


DT


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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2019, 09:30:50 AM »
David Tepper,


I'll try anyway.  ;)


If you look at the original Van Etten 9 holes built around 1895 they are all on the east side of the intersecting road, measuring 2896 yards in total.


When R.B. Wilson arrived in 1899 and added nine they were all on land West of the intersecting road, measuring 3259 yards.


The simple answer to the question is that this is where Mr. Young (and then the club) owned land, some of which was later sold to Hollywood.


The total course length of 6155 yards at Deal was quite staunch in 1900.  Today (with less acreage) it's known as a shortish course with very limited ability to expand.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 09:43:17 AM by MCirba »
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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2019, 08:00:34 PM »
MCirba -

Yes, your explanation makes sense. But that begs the next questions - did Deal GC have a choice in selling the land under their 3 holes to Hollywood? If they did, why did they choose to do so, thereby compromising their existing course?

DT
 
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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2019, 08:09:16 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on October 26, 2019, 08:00:34 PM
MCirba -

Yes, your explanation makes sense. But that begs the next questions - did Deal GC have a choice in selling the land under their 3 holes to Hollywood? If they did, why did they choose to do so, thereby compromising their existing course?

DT
 


David,


They didn't have a choice.  The land was owned by George Young, who leased it to Deal.  It was the only part of the course not owned by the club.


When Hollywood was formed, he decided he wanted that land to go to the new club.


Sven
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David_Tepper

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2019, 08:31:34 PM »
Sven -

Thanks for the info. I am done asking questions!

But I am hoping to sneak a peak at both courses when I am back at the Jersey Shore for a few days next June.

DT
 
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MCirba

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Re: The many faces of Walter Travis
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2019, 08:37:40 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on October 26, 2019, 08:31:34 PM
Sven -

Thanks for the info. I am done asking questions!

But I am hoping to sneak a peak at both courses when I am back at the Jersey Shore for a few days next June.

DT


David,


Both are worthy of a visit.


Hollywood is special.
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