[Jay Flemma]

Hi everybody. Nice to see you all again.
So I had a chance to play three Travis designs almost back to back to back this year. First I saw Tom Doak's wonderful restoration and renovation work at Hollywood. I love how they asked him if he wanted his name on the scorecard with all the other designers and - according to legend - he said something along the lines of "No take every one else name off except Travis's."
Then soon after I played Yahnundasis. I was struck with how radically different they are. At Hollywood, the bunkering was what jumped out at you right out of the gate, while at Yahnundasis it was the fairway contours. The terrain itself seemed the primary defense. Also, Travis seems like he was using a few of the ideas we love Macdonald Raynor and Banks for at Yanny. There's a Biarritz and a punchbowl for starters.

I also played North Jersey CC with one of the other writers, Hank Gola. I know that there is still a lot of Jones's work at NJCC, but some of the Travis greens are still there, like the magnificent 17th with all its wild contours. I'll post some pictures when I get some time. But it's nice to see everyone again, and if any of you are passing through either NYC/NJ or upstate NY, let's go play some golf. I just had my first cortisone shot, so hopefully, I can swing the club

[Tim Martin]

Jay-What other architects names were on the scorecard to remove besides Travis? I don’t think there were any.

[Jay Flemma]

That's the story I got from the members I played with. I never saw the old card, so I can't speak to it. Maybe Tom can chime in when he fets time.

[MCirba]

Here's what I have on Yahundasis...

George Low 1905,
Donald Ball/Sherrill Sherman 1911,
Walter Travis 1915,1924
Charles McCarthy 1931,
William Gordon/David Gordon 1960

Love that course and its tremendous quirk.

[Eric LeFante]

Jay-What other architects names were on the scorecard to remove besides Travis? I don’t think there were any.

I think Rees Jones was on it

[Jay Flemma]

Apparently it listed a number of other architects - all of them I guess - and then Doak said take everyone's name off except Travis.  That's what they did - I checked my scorecard from my round and now only Travis's name appears on it.
Mike, the Yanny has had several hands work on it since Travis, but there is still significant Travis work left there.
Happily, it turns out the blind pond on three was not Travis's idea:)

[Tom_Doak]

Apparently it listed a number of other architects - all of them I guess - and then Doak said take everyone's name off except Travis.

I don't remember if that is true or not.


It would be consistent for me - I have lobbied both GOLF Magazine and GOLF DIGEST to quit listing consulting architects on their rankings, because it incentivizes modern designers to tinker with older designs to gain credit.  And I'm one of the only designers who believes restorations should be historically accurate if they are going to employ that term.


Adding:  I think the club might like to tell this story because it implies I was more involved than I really was (since they couldn't put my name on the scorecard).  My associate Brian Schneider did nearly all of the work at Hollywood.  My role was just to tell them they should restore it completely.  (They are still a little way short of that.)

[Jay Flemma]

I still loved it though, Tom. Tom, how do you think Hollywood is different from other Travis courses? What is there at Hollywood that you feel is quintessential Travis? And have you seen Yahnundasis yet?

[MCirba]

Here is what I have on Hollywood prior to the work by Tom and Brian.


Lawrence Von Etten 1898,
Isaac Mackie 1913,
Walter Travis 1915,
A.W. Tillinghast 1935,
Dick Wilson 1956,
Geoffrey Cornish/Brian Silva 1990,
Rees Jones 1998

I believe the routing is still mostly Mackie's.

The Travis "innards' are exceptional.

[David_Tepper]

The 1898 work by Lawrence Von Etten was certainly not at Hollywood GC's present location in Deal. Most likely it was at HGC's original location in the West End neighborhood of Long Branch. From there HGC moved to the Norwood course location (in West Long Branch) before moving to Deal in 1912.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here is what I have on Hollywood prior to the work by Tom and Brian.


Lawrence Von Etten 1898,
Isaac Mackie 1913,
Walter Travis 1915,
A.W. Tillinghast 1935,
Dick Wilson 1956,
Geoffrey Cornish/Brian Silva 1990,
Rees Jones 1998

I believe the routing is still mostly Mackie's.

The Travis "innards' are exceptional.

Mike:


The Mackie course was on new property (at least the second time the club moved).  Not sure anything before 1913 matters.


Sven

[David_Tepper]

I started a thread about the history of Hollywood GC a few years ago, with a link to a history written by a local golfer:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=57145.0;wap2

Unfortunately, the link to the local history piece is no longer available.

According that history, HGC started with a course in the West End of Long Branch and then moved to a Tom Bendelow course in West Long Branch in 1902. HGC moved to their present location in Deal in 1912-13. Norwood Golf Club took over the Bendelow course and brought in Tillinghast to re-design it. Norwood GC went bust in the Depression of the 1930's. 


http://www.tillinghast.net/Norwood.html

[MCirba]

Here's what the Travis Society reports;


1917 — (r) Hollywood Golf Club, Deal, NJ   According to the HGC centennial history book, “With two exceptions, Travis followed Mackie’s original routing. He did, however, combine the original 13th and 14th holes, 260 and 150 yards, respectively, into the present 13th hole, and built the present par-three 17th to compensate, shortening the original 17th to creat the prestn 16th.  Travis’ major contribution, however, was a complete reworking of the greens and the bunkering.”
Isaac Mackie, original designer –1914; Seth Raynor, remodeling-1916; Dick Wilson, remodeling –1956; Geoff Cornish, remodeling–1980s; Rees Jones and his Senior Design Associate, Keith Evans, renovation/restoration-1997 to 2012; Tom Doak’s Renaissance Golf with design Associate Brian Schneider, restoration – 2013- present.
If memory serves, the Mackie course utilized some of the original Van Etten holes he designed on the property when it was part of Deal Golf Club, before being sold off to Hollywood.  I may be wrong...

[Sven Nilsen]

When Hollywood bought new property around 1912, they purchased land quasi-adjacent to Deal.  There were three Deal holes on that land, but I doubt they were incorporated into the new course.

[David_Tepper]

If memory serves, the Mackie course utilized some of the original Van Etten holes he designed on the property when it was part of Deal Golf Club, before being sold off to Hollywood.  I may be wrong... Sven -  Now I am confused. What was Von Etten's connection to Hollywood circa 1898?  DT

[Sven Nilsen]

If memory serves, the Mackie course utilized some of the original Van Etten holes he designed on the property when it was part of Deal Golf Club, before being sold off to Hollywood.  I may be wrong... Sven -  Now I am confused. What was Von Etten's connection to Hollywood circa 1898?  DT

David:


That is not my quote.


Sven

[MCirba]

From the Deal Golf Club history...it appears that the holes sold to Hollywood from Deal were from R.B. Wilson's second nine holes circa 1899, not Van Etten's from a few years earlier, all of which still exist in modified form at Deal.


By 1912, Young experienced financial problems that forced him to sell his estate to the Hollywood Golf Club. This cost Deal its 4th, 5th, and 6th holes which now play as Hollywood’s 16th, 14th, and 15th respectively. A major revision was overseen by legendary golf course architect Donald Ross. Ross replaced them with what now play as the final six holes on the front nine and changed the 17th and 18th to their present par four-three finish.

[David_Tepper]

MCirba -

What is Von Etten's connection to Hollywood circa 1898?

DT

Sven - Very sorry. My mistake.  DT

[MCirba]

David Tepper,


None, apparently.



The original Deal course was 9 holes by Lawrence Van Etten in 1896 and then 9 by R.B. Wilson in 1899.


Three of the Wilson holes ( I incorrectly remembered Van Etten) (Hollywood's present 16,14,15) were later sold to Hollywood by Deal.  Please see above, thanks.

[Mike Sweeney]

First I saw Tom Doak's wonderful restoration and renovation work at Hollywood. I love how they asked him if he wanted his name on the scorecard with all the other designers and - according to legend - he said something along the lines of "No take every one else name off except Travis's."

Jay,


Confirmation. 

[MCirba]

David Tepper,

None, apparently.

The original Deal course was 9 holes by Lawrence Van Etten in 1896 and then 9 by R.B. Wilson in 1899.

Three of the Wilson holes ( I incorrectly remembered Van Etten) (Hollywood's present 16,14,15) were later sold to Hollywood by Deal.  Please see above, thanks.

David Tepper,


Just checking to see if this makes sense from your understanding?  Thanks!

[David_Tepper]

MCirba -

I am not familiar with the history of Deal GC (although my mother taught at Deal Elementary School, which was adjacent to Deal GC, for several years in the 1960's ). I was not aware a portion of the land Hollywood acquired when it moved to Deal in 1912-13 held holes that were part of the Deal GC course.

Do we know who designed the first Hollywood course in West End/Long Branch in the 1890's? I grew up within a quarter mile of that property.

DT

[Sven Nilsen]

David:


There are confusing reports on the first Hollywood course.


Two separate July 1897 articles note the first course of 9 holes for the Hollywood GC was laid out by Tom Bendelow.  The 1900 Harpers Guide notes the 9 hole course was laid out by James H. Norton (the club's greenskeeper) in the Fall of 1898.  By 1902 the course had 18 holes.  My assumption is that Bendelow laid out the first 9 holes, which were reworked by Norton a year later.


It was used by the Hollywood GC until 1906 when the club moved to a new site with a new 18 hole course.  In 1913, this course had been reduced to 9 holes, and the club abandoned it when they moved to their new location adjacent to Deal.


It is my understanding that it was the first 1897 course that continued on as Norwood CC.


Sven


Jan. 30, 1912 The Daily Record -

[David_Tepper]

Sven -

Thanks for the information and for posting that article. I did not know Bendelow designed at least part of Hollywood's original course in the 1890's. I am under the impression he also designed the 18-hole course in West Long Branch, where Hollywood moved in 1906.

In addition to growing up very near the site of Hollywood's original course (I remember when the Hollywood Hotel burnt down in the late 1950's), I also worked for the tennis pro at Hollywood for 4 summers in the 1960's.

DT   

[Sven Nilsen]

David:


I don't know who did the 1906 course.  It could have been Bendelow, but at this point he was firmly entrenched in the Midwest and his New York area efforts were few and far between.


Sven

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