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John Mayhugh

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2019, 07:13:47 AM »

quite a few decades ago Formby abandoned several holes in dune land due to the fear of erosion which has still not happened. I wonder if these changes are more to do with having money in the bank account and it being too tempting not to spend it.
Coastal erosion was mentioned in the announcement of the work. Talk about planning ahead:
Formby is on a stretch of coastline heavily affected by coastal erosion. Thinking ahead some thirty years or more, Mackenzie & Ebert have created inspirational designs which will completely replace the current 9th and 10th holes which are forecast to be significantly impacted by erosion and sand blown from the nearby beach.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2019, 07:33:27 AM »
If #9 is "one of the best holes on the course", it may speak more to the overall quality of the course than of the hole itself.  I found little to distinguish any of the par 5s which I went -2 for the four in a round of 81.  It appears that the work at RND is motivated primarily by the ongoing coastal erosion, and according to an internet report, the architect's proposal was approved unanimously.

As to sizing greens (most targets for that matter) for the shots required, I think it is fundamental.  Golf is a game of skill.  I have a near zero chance of hitting a long iron into a firm, shallow green complex and holding the shot.  Of course, if you want to argue that par doesn't matter, then, I suppose, neither does the size and shape of the green.

Lou,
If you couldn't appreciate the 9th, I have to think it was due to a general disdain for the course/experience. It's a really clever hole, made so by the green.

Of course making a green size appropriate to the shots should be considered. But you miss the point.
  • M&E were hired to deal with a coastal erosion problem.
  • They dealt with this by modifying 7, building a new 8, and modifying 9.
  • The main real reason 9 needed to change was because they chose to make 7 a par 5.
  • If M&E had wanted to, they could have made a proposal that preserved the 9th.
Fortunately, from reading other comments, it now seems that the plan for 9 is not as severe as previously announced.

Improving is fine. Change does not always equal improvement.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2019, 08:29:12 AM »
I just read somewhere that the sea is now very close to where the pre - mid 70s was located. It took 40 years, but the alterations did prove to be done for good reason. The predicted continued advancement of the sea in the low lying area which is seen from the 10th tee is very good reason to plan a new routing. But these changes have nothing to do with the first phase of tinkering. That said, I am intrigued by the proposed dune work on 16 because I think similar work is planned for Burnham's 12th.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 01:29:29 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Niall C

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2019, 01:44:27 PM »
1 - well regarded and reasonably well financed traditional/old links courses ie. 100 years old, have been having make overs and tweaks on a fairly frequent basis since the year dot - nothing new here


2 - at any point in time starting with Old Tom there has been a pre-eminent architect or two who have hoovered up more than a fair share of the work. Despite that courses don't all look alike.


3 - the homogenization process if you want to call it that, mainly happened in the 1890's and early 1900's when 18 holes became the norm and the likes of HG Hutchinson expounded standard or preferred length holes. Everything since has been updating based on those basic principles or following whatever fad is in vogue ie. hairy lip bunkers from a few years ago.


I've a suggestion, why don't we first off consider whether the proposals are any bloody good or not, rather than shouting them down because the architect isn't one of the chosen ones or because of some misplaced principle that old courses shouldn't be touched. Just a thought.


Niall   

Sean_A

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Re: Formby "upgrades" New
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2019, 02:11:14 PM »
Niall

Because the homogenization process started long ago doesn't mean it should be continued! 

I am curious about the 6th.  I don't mind the idea of the hole spreading wider to the right because it might mean removal of trees!  However, if that happens, I would like to see an advantage to be had by driving close to the left ridge. 

I am completely confounded by the 8th.  It is one of the those awkward holes which I admire.  It seems to play loads longer than yardage suggests. 

When I see some sort of real plans it will be easier to better understand the changes.  That said, my starting point is if it ain't broken....

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 05:32:21 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

John Mayhugh

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2019, 03:39:45 PM »
Niall,
If you look at my initial post, I questioned the value of the announced changes, along with an explanation of my thoughts. It would be hard to be more specific without having more detail of the work.

My own experience with Mackenzie & Ebert is quite limited. I have never played any of their original work, and these are the only courses I've played that they have worked on or have announced plans to work on:
  • Noordwijkse - not sure when this work happened or the specifics
  • Deal - returning 16 to a par 5 gets a huge thumbs up
  • Dornoch - changes to 7 seemed silly to me
  • Porthcawl - not clear on scope of work
  • Saunton East - not clear on scope of work
  • St. Andrews New - not clear on scope of work
  • The Island - sounds like moving from revetted to frilly bunkers (yawn), no strong opinion
  • Formby (planned) - the announced changes don't seem to improve the course
  • RND (planned) - initial plans seemed to be very misguided wrt to 9
So based on my understanding of changes impacting courses I've played, overall impressions have been positive at Deal only, and negative with Dornoch, Formby, & Westward Ho! In each case, I can articulate why I'm not sold on what's planned or being done. Does this mean I don't view Mackenzie & Ebert positively? No, it means I'm skeptical of the specifics that have been announced. I might be either positive or skeptical with some other courses, but haven't played them or don't know enough about the changes to comment. 

Surely I can be allowed to provide a bit of criticism as counterbalance to other discussion of their work?  Just look at the laudatory reviews of Hirono, which everyone is seemingly judging based on some great looking photos provided by the firm.

I think M&E are tremendous networkers and marketers. I don't blame them for taking all of the work that they can get. I just hate to see courses get a bit less unique in the name of improvement. I don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.


John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2019, 03:45:04 PM »
Niall,
If you look at my initial post, I questioned the value of the announced changes, along with an explanation of my thoughts. It would be hard to be more specific without having more detail of the work.

My own experience with Mackenzie & Ebert is quite limited. I have never played any of their original work, and these are the only courses I've played that they have worked on or have announced plans to work on:
  • Noordwijkse - not sure when this work happened or the specifics
  • Deal - returning 16 to a par 5 gets a huge thumbs up (but wasn't Ebert involved in calling it a par 4 as well?)
  • Dornoch - changes to 7 seemed silly to me
  • Porthcawl - not clear on scope of work
  • Saunton East - not clear on scope of work
  • St. Andrews New - not clear on scope of work
  • The Island - sounds like moving from revetted to frilly bunkers (yawn), no strong opinion
  • Formby (planned) - the announced changes don't seem to improve the course
  • RND (planned) - initial plans seemed to be very misguided wrt to 9
So based on my understanding of changes impacting courses I've played, overall impressions have been positive at Deal only, and negative with Dornoch, Formby, & Westward Ho! In each case, I can articulate why I'm not sold on what's planned or being done. Does this mean I don't view Mackenzie & Ebert positively? No, it means I'm skeptical of the specifics that have been announced. I might be either positive or skeptical with some other courses, but haven't played them or don't know enough about the changes to comment. 

Surely I can be allowed to provide a bit of criticism as counterbalance to other discussion of their work?  Just look at the laudatory reviews of Hirono, which everyone is seemingly judging based on some great looking photos provided by the firm.

I think M&E are tremendous networkers and marketers. I don't blame them for taking all of the work that they can get. I just hate to see courses get a bit less unique in the name of improvement. I don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2019, 12:56:09 PM »
John


My initial 3 points were in response to some specific posts, not necessarily yours, while my plea to consider the actual design was a response to what I perceive as the general tone of this thread and others when discussing the work of architects who aren't one of the preferred group of architects on GCA. It just smacks of snobbishness.


So in asking for people to just consider the proposals on their own merits I'm not saying you shouldn't express your views.....obviously I'm not. I'm just suggesting they focus on the design issues and whether it makes the course any better.


Niall

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2019, 01:28:20 PM »
Niall,
If you look at my initial post, I questioned the value of the announced changes, along with an explanation of my thoughts. It would be hard to be more specific without having more detail of the work.

My own experience with Mackenzie & Ebert is quite limited. I have never played any of their original work, and these are the only courses I've played that they have worked on or have announced plans to work on:
  • Noordwijkse - not sure when this work happened or the specifics
  • Deal - returning 16 to a par 5 gets a huge thumbs up
  • Dornoch - changes to 7 seemed silly to me
  • Porthcawl - not clear on scope of work
  • Saunton East - not clear on scope of work
  • St. Andrews New - not clear on scope of work
  • The Island - sounds like moving from revetted to frilly bunkers (yawn), no strong opinion
  • Formby (planned) - the announced changes don't seem to improve the course
  • RND (planned) - initial plans seemed to be very misguided wrt to 9
So based on my understanding of changes impacting courses I've played, overall impressions have been positive at Deal only, and negative with Dornoch, Formby, & Westward Ho! In each case, I can articulate why I'm not sold on what's planned or being done. Does this mean I don't view Mackenzie & Ebert positively? No, it means I'm skeptical of the specifics that have been announced. I might be either positive or skeptical with some other courses, but haven't played them or don't know enough about the changes to comment. 

Surely I can be allowed to provide a bit of criticism as counterbalance to other discussion of their work?  Just look at the laudatory reviews of Hirono, which everyone is seemingly judging based on some great looking photos provided by the firm.

I think M&E are tremendous networkers and marketers. I don't blame them for taking all of the work that they can get. I just hate to see courses get a bit less unique in the name of improvement. I don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.


M&E are working at Silloth as per another thread earlier this year

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2019, 01:53:21 PM »
1 - well regarded and reasonably well financed traditional/old links courses ie. 100 years old, have been having make overs and tweaks on a fairly frequent basis since the year dot - nothing new here


2 - at any point in time starting with Old Tom there has been a pre-eminent architect or two who have hoovered up more than a fair share of the work. Despite that courses don't all look alike.


3 - the homogenization process if you want to call it that, mainly happened in the 1890's and early 1900's when 18 holes became the norm and the likes of HG Hutchinson expounded standard or preferred length holes. Everything since has been updating based on those basic principles or following whatever fad is in vogue ie. hairy lip bunkers from a few years ago.


I've a suggestion, why don't we first off consider whether the proposals are any bloody good or not, rather than shouting them down because the architect isn't one of the chosen ones or because of some misplaced principle that old courses shouldn't be touched. Just a thought.


Niall


We meet again :)


1. This is the same bollocks that committees spew to try to get their changes through memberships 'the course has evolved over the last XX years. This is just the latest evolution'. Mackenzie's proposal to update the bunker on 17 at North Berwick had something to this effect and it is bollocks.


It is true that courses evolve, but as I've mentioned before, I would argue that most great courses in the UK have not materially improved as a result of work that came post golden-age, when architects were improving courses as a result of new ideas (strategic school of thinking) and technology. We can't say with 100% certainty whether the changes from 60 years ago improved the course or not because we weren't there, but my evidence against the changes are two fold: the courses and more specifically holes that I hold in the highest regard are generally original, or from an architect who updated the course at the time described above. Second, the work that I have seen, which was meant to improve already great courses, while at best isn't bad, doesn't materially make the course better in my eyes. It's superfluous.


2. Because they were good architects who took what the land gave them and designed / redesigned what they felt was appropriate (where needed). I don't see that now - I see people selling a product now, not a solution.


3. There may be other homogenisation periods in GCA, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't kick-up a fuss when great courses in the UK are getting updated in the name of fairness. In my mind there's a difference between updating a course because it has become obsolete based on new ways of thinking about GCA (as was the case when victorian age courses were all renovated) and updating a course because of a certain fad. The changes we're seeing now are a fad, and a dangerous one at that. Where holes are getting straightened, fairness is championed and in general, the UK is worried about championship-fying all the courses. It's not as if someone is touting some new principle of GCA in the way the golden-age architects were that is revolutionising how golf courses can challenge players of all abilities.


I'm not passionate about this because I don't like certain architects. I'm sitting here, scratching my head wondering why we're all sitting here patting each other on the back for every new project that's destroying unique architecture around the UK, when holes like the 8th at The Island are being lost forever to make the course more 'championship' worthy.


I've seen and looked at the changes being made at The Island in depth. A lot of the changes look so insipid, so standard that I honestly feel a tinge of sadness for a course I've only played once. Added bunkers where none are needed; alterations to holes to weed out the so called 'weak links', changes to undulations to increase fair pin placements.


As Sean likes to say - it's the members who have to decide, and it's ultimately their choice as it's their course, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sting the GCA community.


Let's open our eyes for a second though. Do we really think the changes that are happening in the UK right now are any good? Caveat - Mr. Pearce did point out that good work is happening, and that is absolutely correct - but I'd argue that most are restorative in nature, or they are improving the qualities of the course through tree management / heather regrowth etc, and not because someone rerouted a weak hole.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2019, 01:55:28 PM »
Niall,
If you look at my initial post, I questioned the value of the announced changes, along with an explanation of my thoughts. It would be hard to be more specific without having more detail of the work.

My own experience with Mackenzie & Ebert is quite limited. I have never played any of their original work, and these are the only courses I've played that they have worked on or have announced plans to work on:
  • Noordwijkse - not sure when this work happened or the specifics
  • Deal - returning 16 to a par 5 gets a huge thumbs up
  • Dornoch - changes to 7 seemed silly to me
  • Porthcawl - not clear on scope of work
  • Saunton East - not clear on scope of work
  • St. Andrews New - not clear on scope of work
  • The Island - sounds like moving from revetted to frilly bunkers (yawn), no strong opinion
  • Formby (planned) - the announced changes don't seem to improve the course
  • RND (planned) - initial plans seemed to be very misguided wrt to 9
So based on my understanding of changes impacting courses I've played, overall impressions have been positive at Deal only, and negative with Dornoch, Formby, & Westward Ho! In each case, I can articulate why I'm not sold on what's planned or being done. Does this mean I don't view Mackenzie & Ebert positively? No, it means I'm skeptical of the specifics that have been announced. I might be either positive or skeptical with some other courses, but haven't played them or don't know enough about the changes to comment. 

Surely I can be allowed to provide a bit of criticism as counterbalance to other discussion of their work?  Just look at the laudatory reviews of Hirono, which everyone is seemingly judging based on some great looking photos provided by the firm.

I think M&E are tremendous networkers and marketers. I don't blame them for taking all of the work that they can get. I just hate to see courses get a bit less unique in the name of improvement. I don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.


M&E are working at Silloth as per another thread earlier this year


Didn't know that - any idea what is being proposed?

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2019, 02:17:20 PM »

I'm not passionate about this because I don't like certain architects. I'm sitting here, scratching my head wondering why we're all sitting here patting each other on the back for every new project that's destroying unique architecture around the UK, when holes like the 8th at The Island are being lost forever to make the course more 'championship' worthy.

I strongly agree with Tim's overall post, but wanted to highlight this as a great summation.


Niall,
With respect to your comment about criticism of non-preferred architects smacking of snobbishness, can you apply this to Mackenzie & Ebert with a straight face? If anything, that firm seems to benefit greatly from its connections/reputation with decision makers and influencers throughout the UK. They likely gain a massive credibility boost by "advising" seven of the ten Open venues, and less prominent clubs pursue an ego boost by hiring (sorry, "appointing") the same firm. Bulletproof decision.

I agree that it makes sense to discuss the specifics of their work. Have you played Formby? If so, what do you think of the plans for that course?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades" New
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2019, 02:32:29 PM »
Other than the 8th at The Island, which other holes are slated for "improvements"?

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 05:35:37 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tim Gallant

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2019, 02:39:36 PM »
Other thean the 8th at The Island, which other holes are slated for "improvements"?

Happy Hockey


Every hole in some small or large way

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2019, 02:46:50 PM »
Other thean the 8th at The Island, which other holes are slated for "improvements"?

Happy Hockey

Every hole in some small or large way

Work was just done to a few holes not all that many years ago.  Is this part of the same program or a different thing altogether?

Can you provide a link to the proposals?

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2019, 02:53:32 PM »
I just read somewhere that the sea is now very close to where the pre - mid 70s was located. It took 40 years, but the alterations did prove to be done for good reason.
That’s what folks at Formby told me when I was there last year.
Not sure as to the specific changes to the 6th, 7th etc etc but I did I notice how the trees were pretty close, excessively so, to the fairway and playing lines in a few places on this part of the course.
Terrific course though as is the immediately adjacent Formby Ladies course.
Atb

Thomas Dai

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2019, 03:01:16 PM »
....... that firm seems to benefit greatly from its connections/reputation with decision makers and influencers throughout the UK. They likely gain a massive credibility boost by "advising" seven of the ten Open venues, and less prominent clubs pursue an ego boost by hiring (sorry, "appointing") the same firm. Bulletproof decision.
Difficult not to go along with this statement and have sympathy for others in the business missing out on potential work.
Atb

John Mayhugh

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2019, 08:07:09 AM »
Thomas,
I don't begrudge M&E from getting all of the work that they can. I do fear that one firm doing too much work risks homogeneity, but I think the bigger problem is with what clubs may be asking for. It's a move towards championship golf and fairness that can strip away charm and uniqueness. That could come from any firm.   

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2019, 02:31:30 PM »
....... that firm seems to benefit greatly from its connections/reputation with decision makers and influencers throughout the UK. They likely gain a massive credibility boost by "advising" seven of the ten Open venues, and less prominent clubs pursue an ego boost by hiring (sorry, "appointing") the same firm. Bulletproof decision.
Difficult not to go along with this statement and have sympathy for others in the business missing out on potential work.
Atb
Here today and gone tomorrow perhaps as well.  I don't see Rees Jones being the Open Doctor lately. In the 90's and 00's he was quite busy. 

I don't begrudge any business for selling what they provide, after all the clubs are the ones hiring them so they must feel they are the best fit for them.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2019, 04:07:00 PM »

Here today and gone tomorrow perhaps as well.  I don't see Rees Jones being the Open Doctor lately. In the 90's and 00's he was quite busy. 

I don't begrudge any business for selling what they provide, after all the clubs are the ones hiring them so they must feel they are the best fit for them.

No matter who the design firm is, I feel like they have some responsibility towards the preservation of what makes golf courses in the UK unique and differentiated from one another. I believe it's possible to help a club meet its goals without following a path towards homogenization.

In the past, clubs in the US spent loads of money trying to be more "championship" oriented, with length, narrowing, and dumbed down features. Now the trend is to spend loads more money undoing dumb decisions of the past. It seems like other regions could benefit from awareness of this and make wiser decisions to begin with.

People can make "free market" type of arguments, but in a world where there are 1,000 Olive Garden restaurants or a similar number of Wetherspoon pubs, I don't think trusting the consumer is proven to result in the best product.



Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #45 on: October 24, 2019, 04:16:37 PM »
People can make "free market" type of arguments, but in a world where there are 1,000 Olive Garden restaurants or a similar number of Wetherspoon pubs, I don't think trusting the consumer is proven to result in the best product.


But leaving it up to John Mayhugh and Tim Gallant does?  ???   ::)   Don't know anything about Wetherspoon, but I've had only one bad meal at Olive Garden (my last one) compared to any number at $$$$, critically acclaimed restaurants (which probably had to do more with unrealistic expectations). 


By the way, I think that RDGC's new #7 will be a huge hit among those who pay the bills.  A couple members expressed concerns for golfers playing 10 and 11, but I doubt that it will be a problem (and if it is, stylish RDGC hard hats could be new source of revenues).  Moving the fronting green-side bunker toward the tee on #10 was a great idea as it is now possible to hold the ball on the green downwind.  Also, the proposed lengthening of #8 makes sense as it has an inviting green to handle the shot from the upper plateau and it differentiates the hole more relative to #17.


Regarding your characterization of my views on Westward Ho!, not "stacking up" is hardly in the same universe as "disdain".  I would enjoy playing RND if I was in the area.  It is just not a course that, IMO, deserves the accolades bestowed here.  But different strokes for different folks.


As to #9, the green is clever only to the extent it was grassed/seeded over exiting terrain.  If Fazio would build that green today and configure the hole as is- for me it was driver, weak hybrid, green-side bunker, 2 putts from 10' for par- he would be criticized.


I suppose that I naturally trust the judgement of those who eat the cooking regularly.  Routing is a tricky thing.  M & E have been around the block a few times and spent a great deal more time on the site than most posting here.  Apparently the good folks at RND aren't so enamored with #9 as a five, though without modifying the green, that will be one difficult par 4.  But we're ok with half pars on this site, right?


BTW2, you take really pretty pictures, particularly of benches. ;)   I once knew a GCAer who was obsessed with classic locker room showers.  Don't think he ever did a pictorial.  As I've noted many times, a great charm of our game is in the many different pleasures we enjoy as golfers.  Some of us even like to keep a scorecard!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 08:06:11 AM by Lou_Duran »

Sean_A

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2019, 05:08:32 PM »
Hey! I generally like Wetherspoons pubs.

1.They are usually in great locations, sometimes occupying very cool buildings.

2. They tend to have a good selection of ales/ bitters.

3. Their pricing is extremely competitive.

So far as large chain enterprises go, Wetherspoons gets two thumbs up from me. I only wish a similar model could be done for golf.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bernie Bell

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Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2019, 05:41:49 PM »
Never been in a Wetherspoons, but I recall the guy got some publicity from dropping all social media.  Among broader societal concerns, tending to socials was distracting his managers from focusing on serving customers.  I can definitely see that applying to golf, even though I admit to following 300+ golf sites on Instagram.  Seems to me socials are driving golf course fashion into the very homogeneity and conformity that the woke golfsters are so quick to criticize in others. 

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2019, 06:05:42 PM »
Sean,

Perhaps my Wetherspoons reference was incorrect. My experience with chain places is that they are competent but are barely distinguishable from another.



Lou,
I have not asserted that I (or Tim) should be deciding on architectural changes to golf courses. I think that's what a skilled designer does. The ones I respect most are willing and able to help steer the clubs towards a solution that meets their goals without sacrificing what makes the course special and unique. Compared to the average member at most clubs, I would guess that many of us on here (including me) have seen a much broader range of golf courses. In doing that, it's possible to gain a greater appreciation for the things that make courses memorable and stand out. Some of us are troubled to see changes that erode such uniqueness.


There's no doubt that M&E and dozens of other firms can make changes to courses that "work" just fine. But just because a change works and the membership is happy with it, does that mean that it's better or worse for the world of golf? Golf courses evolve over time, but I reject the idea that evolution must lead to homogenization. That's the thing that I fear.

Feel free to make fun of me posting photos of benches or anything else that you like. I didn't set out to collect such photos, but ended up with a lot, and posted in response to a request. I do photograph a lot of things other than just golf holes, because it supplements my memory. I fear I may never get back to somewhere like Flamborough Head, but am happy to have photos that include their lighthouse. A filled in scorecard is a record of what happened on that one day. I guess pictures are too with some of these places given the desire to make changes.


I don't see any point in further discussion on the changes at Westward Ho!, especially not on this thread. Somehow or other, M&E decided to forgo their earlier plans and leave the green alone. Maybe it was discussion on here (doubtful). Possibly when someone like Tom Doak thought the green was significant enough that he asked to map it before it was changed, that caused second thoughts elsewhere. I'm happy about the result, no matter the reason.



Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Formby "upgrades"
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2019, 09:23:59 AM »
JM-


Not poking fun on the pics.  I appreciate the effort to memorialize and share golf experiences.  Your bench pictures could very well inspire folks to invest in these typically inexpensive, useful amenities.  Me, I try to stand throughout the round for fear of not being able to get back up.


I am less well-traveled in the UK and NE USA than some of you, but I've experienced a decent cross-section (say from Mulranny and Cline to RCD, R. Portrush, Dornoch, Shinny, NGLA, WF, etc.) and I just don't see the homogeneity that is often lamented in the DG.  Perhaps I lack the fine discernment at play here.


I do speak with superintendents and a few architects and the underlying theme is typically solving perceived problems.  There may be some keeping up with the Joneses involved- that is a natural result of competition, and even clubs with long waiting lists seek to improve- but differentiation vis-a-vis overcoming perceived weaknesses and improving the attributes of what makes the course unique is typically the thesis.


As to the scorecard, it is a personal thing which enables me to remember features of the courses I might have played 20+ years ago.  Coupled with a good aerial, I can often recreate a round and retrieve memories that would be otherwise lost deep in the archives.  We all have our ways, our preferences.   

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