Clayton, DeVries & Pont

[Howard Riefs]

A few more articles below. And a belated congrats to the team!

Golf Digest
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/michael-clayton-veteran-golf-course-designers-come-together-to-create-new-international-partnership

Planet Golf
https://www.planetgolf.com/news/mike-clayton-splits-from-occm-and-geoff-ogilvy-to-start-new-business

State of the Game podcast
https://stateofthegame.fireside.fm/99

[corey miller]

Congrats to the team.....


I am only familiar with one Mike Devries work (a restoration at Sunningdale with Joe Hancock) , but he remains the architect I would most like to become more familiar with. 


Great feedback on Kingsley, all the pictures of his work on this site are incredible, and his original greens at Sunningdale are for me some of my favorite "modern". 

[Jeff Schley]

Congrats to the team.....


I am only familiar with one Mike Devries work (a restoration at Sunningdale with Joe Hancock) , but he remains the architect I would most like to become more familiar with. 


Great feedback on Kingsley, all the pictures of his work on this site are incredible, and his original greens at Sunningdale are for me some of my favorite "modern".

Corey,
The most beautiful course I have played is Cape Wickham and of course any architect would be thrilled with that piece of land, but he did a very smart routing and did get close to optimal views from as many holes as he could. Several things stand out:1. The most memorable at the very least par 3 green complexes which had humps and tiers.2. Perhaps too many blind tee shots.  There isn't much to aim at there for no trees whatsoever or landmarks outside of the lighthouse.3. The closing 5 hole loop is wonderful and he tucks greens as close as he can to the water for 16,17,18.4. Hard to beat those views on a sunny day. We actually had sun, rain, sun.

I won't relive the thread, but when I wrote that Cape Wickham had the best views and was one of my top 5 courses I have ever played and experienced, it set off yet another firey debate on why water views should/shouldn't be considered for rankings.  I don't care what others say, I have an opinion like others and I love water views incorporated into a course and adds to the beauty, enjoyment and memory of a course.  In this case Cape Wickham is tops for me in terms of beauty.  Mike whenever I think of you I think of Cape Wickham and vice versa.  Well done.

I seem to have to edit most every post to make it readable as it groups together into 1 paragraph every time.

[James Reader]

Looks like they’re going to be doing some work at the Addington as well.

[Mike_Clayton]

Thank you all for the kind words.  It's going to be fun.

[Rob Rigg]

Very cool news. Amazing to look through the course images that these 3 have created or renovated.

Also, the website is well done. Chapeau.

(sidenote - There is a typo in Frank Pont's bio . . . )

[Ally Mcintosh]

I see Adam has just announced on golfcoursearchitecture that Frank and Mike are undertaking a bunker study at Royal Dublin looking at style and positioning.


I actually really like the current style put in by Martin Hawtree and Caspar Grauballe. It’ll be interesting to see some of the positioning become a little more playful though. And maybe a little more variety in size.

[BHoover]

It is refreshing to see that there are some in the industry with integrity. Kudos to Mr. Clayton, Mr. DeVries, and Mr. Pont for choosing morality over financial benefit. I believe Mike Clayton is the most important voice in golf at this point, and he (and his partners) represents the values and integrity the game of golf should be promoting.

“We are saddened that some in our industry have elected to attend a conference in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia this week. Clayton, DeVries & Pont wishes to confirm that it declined its invitation to participate and has no interest in supporting the country's most pernicious regime.“

I would be curious to see who did choose to accept the invite.

https://twitter.com/cdpgolf1/status/1224244622781747200?s=21

[Tom_Doak]

BHoover:


Lots of us are not attending the conference or have actually turned down lucrative work in Saudi Arabia (and other countries) for various reasons.  I just wouldn't feel good sending my associates there.  But I didn't put out a press release about it.

[Lou_Duran]

No virtue signaling Tom?  A lot to be said for letting your work and reputation do the talking.

[BHoover]

No virtue signaling Tom?  A lot to be said for letting your work and reputation do the talking.

Maybe speaking out is actually a positive thing, rather than staying silent?


Tom, I appreciate your stance. I think the game would be well served by having more prominent voices speaking out and taking a stand.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I appreciate your stance. I think the game would be well served by having more prominent voices speaking out and taking a stand.

BHoover:


I think it's an individual choice whether someone wants to work somewhere or not, and I generally don't believe in pointing fingers at others over their choices.


I do wonder whether international relations with Saudi Arabia is an issue in "the game" as you assert.  They are not exactly a big player in golf.


I do think that Americans [and Australians] should question their government's foreign policy and alliances, much more outspokenly than we have, instead of rubber stamping any and all relationships just in the name of "good business".  But that's more effective via the ballot box and local activism than by press release.

[Ira Fishman]

Frank Gerhy just did an worth reading interview in New York magazine that includes some questions about why he has turned down potential projects in Saudi Arabia. Part financial, part personal. It is worth a read in part because of his oblique critiques of other architects.


Ira

[Anthony Butler]

Tom, I appreciate your stance. I think the game would be well served by having more prominent voices speaking out and taking a stand.

BHoover:


I think it's an individual choice whether someone wants to work somewhere or not, and I generally don't believe in pointing fingers at others over their choices.


I do wonder whether international relations with Saudi Arabia is an issue in "the game" as you assert.  They are not exactly a big player in golf.


I do think that Americans [and Australians] should question their government's foreign policy and alliances, much more outspokenly than we have, instead of rubber stamping any and all relationships just in the name of "good business".  But that's more effective via the ballot box and local activism than by press release.

My father had a saying: "A principle is just an opinion until it costs you something."

In addition to the ballot box and local activism, we need to be accountable for our actions and words... especially if they come at a personal cost, either through lost financial opportunity, relationships etc...

At this point in time, I can't imagine the Saudi Government thinks the golf industry is holding them to account for murdering one of their own citizens on foreign soil. In case you haven't been paying attention, the Trump family is so entangled in the Middle East oil regimes they're not going to do squat... a position the Bush Administration also adopted after 9/11 when it turned out that the whole operation was financed by Saudi 'charities" and 15 out of 19 of the highjackers were Saudi citizens. In the wake of those revelations, I turned down work at the Carlyle Group twice. If those connections are not apparent to you, I suggest Googling before posting a reply.

Either way, it seems they've done just fine without my help... Since I have no proof that management subsequently retaliated against me, does that retrospectively qualify as 'virtue signalling" Lou Duran? 
 It's pretty obvious both McIlroy and Woods were approached by the people staging the European Tour event in Saudi Arabia and turned them down. Their public comments weren't as definitive as CDP, but it's obvious $1-2million in appearance money wasn't enough for them to get involved with these people.

The event still went ahead and it appears there is Saudi money behind this World Golf League concept, so I guess will see..

[Bernie Bell]

This conversation gets more interesting when it gets around to China.

[Tom_Doak]

This conversation gets more interesting when it gets around to China.

Does it?  China is not building any new courses for the foreseeable future, though they, too, are happy to pay appearance money to top golfers (which no one has turned down AFAIK).


There's a lot of potentially dodgy business to be done around the world, and not many countries left with the moral standing to criticize others.  New Zealand is one of the few I can think of.

[Bernie Bell]

Not about countries criticizing one another, it's about professionals in an industry taking to twitter to denounce their colleagues whose choices "sadden" them.  Golf is not my business, but in my line of work I find that such profiles in Twitter courage are often geared more toward differentiating a "brand" for perceived marketing and recruiting advantage than anything else.  Maybe China is no longer a litmus test for golf, as it remains for the likes of the NBA and Nike.  The moral philosophers of the NBA suddenly had a lot less to say when there was real money on the line.  Is there a lot of golf business to be done these days in the Kingdom, or is writing them off just sacrificing the sleeves off one's vest?

[Tom_Doak]

Not about countries criticizing one another, it's about professionals in an industry taking to twitter to denounce their colleagues whose choices "sadden" them. 

The moral philosophers of the NBA suddenly had a lot less to say when there was real money on the line.  Is there a lot of golf business to be done these days in the Kingdom, or is writing them off just sacrificing the sleeves off one's vest?

Ah, now I understand your point.


Twitter in general is bulls**t so everything said there must be taken with a grain of salt.  But golf isn't like the NBA because most of us are independent contractors.


To get the same sort of phenomenon in golf, you meed only go read all the concern trolling in the golf media about the USGA / R&A report which promised to study solutions to the distance problem.  Even such weak incrementalist tea as that was denounced by all the people who depend on Callaway and Titleist for their livelihoods.


I know of no parallel in golf architecture.  I suppose if someone were to vow not to lengthen any courses it might call out others who do, but you can be sure that's the one press release the golf media wouldn't print!

[BHoover]

Jesus, I was merely complimenting a group of individuals for, in my opinion, showing integrity by announcing their intent to not attend a conference in Saudi Aarabia. This does not need to be taken by others as somehow questioning their own integrity.


In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka, “Lighten up, Francis.”

[Adam Lawrence]

Not about countries criticizing one another, it's about professionals in an industry taking to twitter to denounce their colleagues whose choices "sadden" them. 

The moral philosophers of the NBA suddenly had a lot less to say when there was real money on the line.  Is there a lot of golf business to be done these days in the Kingdom, or is writing them off just sacrificing the sleeves off one's vest?

Ah, now I understand your point.


Twitter in general is bulls**t so everything said there must be taken with a grain of salt.  But golf isn't like the NBA because most of us are independent contractors.


To get the same sort of phenomenon in golf, you meed only go read all the concern trolling in the golf media about the USGA / R&A report which promised to study solutions to the distance problem.  Even such weak incrementalist tea as that was denounced by all the people who depend on Callaway and Titleist for their livelihoods.


I know of no parallel in golf architecture.  I suppose if someone were to vow not to lengthen any courses it might call out others who do, but you can be sure that's the one press release the golf media wouldn't print!

I would, like a shot. It would be a great story.

[MKrohn]

This conversation gets more interesting when it gets around to China.

There's a lot of potentially dodgy business to be done around the world, and not many countries left with the moral standing to criticize others.  New Zealand is one of the few I can think of.

Easy to be NZ when you are just a staging point to enter Australia.

[Tim Leahy]

Please somebody build a great new course near Sacramento, CA! We need a couple.

[Lou_Duran]

Since I have no proof that management subsequently retaliated against me, does that retrospectively qualify as 'virtue signalling" Lou Duran? 


It's pretty obvious both McIlroy and Woods were approached by the people staging the European Tour event in Saudi Arabia and turned them down. Their public comments weren't as definitive as CDP, but it's obvious $1-2million in appearance money wasn't enough for them to get involved with these people.

I don't know, did you broadcast to the world your reasons for passing up opportunities with Carlyle?  In line with your father's wise counsel, what were the opportunity costs of turning down their offers?  I doubt that you were burnishing your resume with a bullet point noting your refusal to work for a group you found offensive- i.e. differentiating your brand.  BTW, turning down work or choosing not to associate with folks you have issues with is common and has nothing to do with signaling.  However, the act of letting others/the world know might indeed include some of that.


Having said all this, my comment was flippant and I should not have made it.  My couple interactions with Mike DeVries have been positive as has been my exposure to his architectural work.  Mike Clayton is building a good reputation in his field, and everything I've heard about him has also been good.


I have no idea what the firm intended with the communication, but I don't think that they have achieved the status of being able to move the needle.  Perhaps it was in a moment of acute social consciousness, but I can see how someone might conclude that it was for differentiating the brand/commercial purposes.  There is a lot to be said for the approach taken by Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods relative to mixing celebrity, business, and politics.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I think it's valuable if people take a stand on moral principles. But like anything, it's easy to overdo and get into dogmatic territory. On the other hand if nothing is ever said publically and everything is just personal, then hello 1984. A measured press release is probably a good middle-ground.

Ulrich

[Peter Pallotta]

I think it's valuable if people take a stand on moral principles. But like anything, it's easy to overdo and get into dogmatic territory. On the other hand if nothing is ever said publicly and everything is just personal, then hello 1984. A measured press release is probably a good middle-ground.

Ulrich

Thanks much, Ulrich - I thought that was very well said. And it helped me to understand/clarify in my own mind the connection between personal moral choices and broader ethical stances.   
It's striking how our current language (e.g. virtue signaling, 'haters' etc) sometimes seems intended not only to blur the lines between the two, but also to undercut both, i.e. the importance of the personal moral choice and the potential efficacy of a public ethical stance.