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Nigel Islam

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2019, 11:38:26 PM »
In the thread about "Reiterating Raynor," Sven posted an article from 1919, which said St. Louis CC's second green (Biarritz) was over 60 yards long.  Just like today.  I think that means the swale and approach had to be part of the green, also just like today. 

The article came out just five years after the course opened.  Real hard for me to imagine the club took it upon itself to radically change CBM's design, only a few years after play started.  i.e. I believe this means MacRaynor designed the Biarritz at SLCC to contain the swale.


    I think it’s possible that St. Louis might have been the first full length green. Piping Rock definitely was not a full length green. Gibson Island and Yale are the other candidates for full length greens as built. Having said that I agree that the intention was likely not to pin the front section like Yale now favors.
   I honestly doubt these holes ever truly played as drawn up on the blackboard. They sure are pretty to me though.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2019, 12:48:58 AM »
Piping Rock definitely was not a full length green.
True, but it also wasn't a green strictly set behind the swale.  According to Emmet, in 1913, the Piping Rock Biarritz had two big greens, one behind the other, with a hollow between them.  So everything but the swale was part of the green. 

In that case, why would they design two greens, if they never intended to pin the closer one? 



Bill Brightly

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2019, 04:17:18 AM »
Piping Rock definitely was not a full length green.


In that case, why would they design two greens, if they never intended to pin the closer one?


"They" did not design two greens. "They" designed an approach leading to a swale leading to the green. Others decided the approach to putting. Why? My guess because that modification seems quite obvious when you look at a Biarritz approach.


I'll ask you this question: If Raynor truly designed St. Louis and Yale to have multi-sectioned greens, why did he and Banks not do do this at the dozens of courses they subsequently built?

Jim Nugent

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2019, 05:51:49 AM »
Bill, Emmet stated in writing that Piping Rock had two greens.  That was in 1913, the same year the course opened.  You think Emmet made it up?  Or CBM didn't design it that way, but the club overrode him within six months after play started?  Quoting Emmet, "very wisely they (i.e. the club) put the thing (i.e. the course) in the hands of one experienced and competent man (CBM) and then left him alone."     

You ask why Raynor didn't make every single Biarritz like that?  Why did he make at least one flat Alps?  Why did CBM and he make a Road Hole without a road or even a hazard that recreates the road's challenges, that didn't dog leg, that wasn't blind off the tee, whose green was easy to hit, that was 50 yards shorter than the original? 

I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but I assume a) for variety, and b) because he/they felt those designs best fit the sites. 

As for Yale, while I don't want to resurrect the old arguments, it seems almost sure to me that when the course opened, the swale and approach were part of the green.  It's also reported that Raynor closely managed the course's construction every step of the way, from start to end.  If both those are facts, and I think they are, either Raynor designed it that way, or the club overrode him and imposed its vision of how the course should be built, right under his nose.   

Jeff Schley

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2019, 10:06:25 AM »
  It's also reported that Raynor closely managed the course's construction every step of the way, from start to end.  If both those are facts, and I think they are, either Raynor designed it that way, or the club overrode him and imposed its vision of how the course should be built, right under his nose.   
. I believe Raynor was very involved in the construction as I have believed, thus I agree with Jim's logic here.  Why is anyone's guess as it isn't clear.  If we talk present day then we see some have the front as green height IMO as a novelty.  Also Gate at NB has two separate greens although not a true Biarritz certainly.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2019, 10:23:07 AM »
Jim:


Do a study of the yardages of all of the holes.  Is the yardage listed to the middle of the two tier complex, or to the middle of the back portion?


That and a review of the early plans should tell you all you need to know.  Whether the front was grassed as green or not, these holes were meant to be played with a long shot that ran to the back tier.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jim Nugent

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2019, 12:56:13 PM »
Jim:


Do a study of the yardages of all of the holes.  Is the yardage listed to the middle of the two tier complex, or to the middle of the back portion?


Sven
You mean yardage listed on the scorecards?

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2019, 06:58:20 PM »
Jim:


Do a study of the yardages of all of the holes.  Is the yardage listed to the middle of the two tier complex, or to the middle of the back portion?


Sven
You mean yardage listed on the scorecards?


Scorecards, original plans, newspaper articles, whatever works.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2019, 06:52:10 PM »
Bill, Emmet stated in writing that Piping Rock had two greens.  That was in 1913, the same year the course opened.  You think Emmet made it up?  Or CBM didn't design it that way, but the club overrode him within six months after play started?  Quoting Emmet, "very wisely they (i.e. the club) put the thing (i.e. the course) in the hands of one experienced and competent man (CBM) and then left him alone."     

You ask why Raynor didn't make every single Biarritz like that? 

I don't know the answers to any of those questions, but I assume a) for variety, and b) because he/they felt those designs best fit the sites. 

As for Yale, while I don't want to resurrect the old arguments, it seems almost sure to me that when the course opened, the swale and approach were part of the green.  It's also reported that Raynor closely managed the course's construction every step of the way, from start to end.  If both those are facts, and I think they are, either Raynor designed it that way, or the club overrode him and imposed its vision of how the course should be built, right under his nose.   


Macdonald stepped away from Piping Rock early on in the process, presumably miffed that he had to route the course around the polo field.


If Piping Rock was indeed designed with a two-sectioned putting surface, why did American Golfer say this about the hole:


There is a Biarritz of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence.  There is a hogsback extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hogsback and the green. The hole has to be played with what is now known as the push-shot, a low ball with plenty of run which will land short of the dip and run onto the green.


It really does not get much clearer than this! No mention of a dual green. Do you think the author of this article missed the front green??? The hole as designed only had one green.


I have a theory why the front section of a VERY FEW Biarritz holes began to be maintained as putting surface. We have all played with golfers who are amateur architects, right? Guys who say: "Ya know, this hole would be so much better if we moved the green over there and made it a dogleg..." Most of the posters here, myself included, probably think about what we might to if we controlled an existing course...


So my theory is when amateurs looked at the landing zone on some Biarritz holes, they naturally saw what appeared to be a second green, and they instructed the greenskeeper to mow the grass short.


Here's the thing about a Biarritz hole: putting a pin up front COMPLETELY alters the hole. It is no longer the hole that Macdonald envisioned, it becomes another mid-iron one-shotter, and a pretty boring one at that.


What makes you think that Seth Raynor, who dutifully followed Macdonald's ideas of building "ideal" golf holes, almost to a fault, would deviate so wildly? And IF he decided the hole was better with dual greens, why didn't he build that at Fishers Island? (The shorter version of that hole would be pretty cool.)


My bet it that it was the club founders and/or Greens Committees who made this incredibly large alteration to the design. Occam's razor . The simplest answer is probably correct.

I happen to like the front section maintained as putting surface, but the pin should never be placed there! Given today's irrigated, plush fairways, a putting surface is much more likely to allow the ball to bounce and roll as CBM intended.



Sean_A

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #84 on: September 10, 2019, 06:22:12 AM »
I am not a fan of the B concept as a par 3, but other than risking pissing off purists, I don't see a problem with using the front section as a hole location once in a while. I don't think it would be boring in the least. In fact, it would be a tough shot for most golfers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jeff Schley

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #85 on: September 10, 2019, 12:04:49 PM »
I am not a fan of the B concept as a par 3, but other than risking pissing off purists, I don't see a problem with using the front section as a hole location once in a while. I don't think it would be boring in the least. In fact, it would be a tough shot for most golfers.

Ciao
I like variety and having it pinned in front is just a different shot to execute. If it is one time a week for example where is the rule book against it?  If you are going to maintain the green, why not take advantage of the extra maintenance and expand the pin positions?  Not often, but sometimes is fine by me.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #86 on: September 10, 2019, 10:14:04 PM »
Sean and Jeff.


If you think variety is a good thing, then the next time you go to North Berwick, pay your green fees, play your normal tees, but when you get to the Redan, move all the way up to the forward tee and hit a wedge...


What the hell, it's still a cool wedge shot, right?


Or do you prefer to take on the challenge that the architect intended?


Sean_A

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2019, 02:40:49 AM »
I have used all the tees on the Redan, including the winter tee for #4. Variety if it is meaningful, is much more important to me than the "purity" of the hole. But I understand that 100 years later I am not playing holes as intended anyway.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2019, 03:15:26 PM »
In his "Re-engineering Raynor" thread, Sven just posted a photo of the Yale Biarritz, from the July 1929 Golf Illustrated.  The caption says "the carry from the back tee is 160 yards to the double green, divided in the middle by a trench which, in itself, is part of the green."

So here is still another source that says Yale's Biarritz green contained the swale and the front part -- this time within a few years of opening.         

Jeff Schley

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2019, 03:23:09 PM »
In his "Re-engineering Raynor" thread, Sven just posted a photo of the Yale Biarritz, from the July 1929 Golf Illustrated.  The caption says "the carry from the back tee is 160 yards to the double green, divided in the middle by a trench which, in itself, is part of the green."

So here is still another source that says Yale's Biarritz green contained the swale and the front part -- this time within a few years of opening.       
Jim I agreed with your point previously and this is more info that strengthens that stance.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Martin

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2019, 04:11:49 PM »
In his "Re-engineering Raynor" thread, Sven just posted a photo of the Yale Biarritz, from the July 1929 Golf Illustrated.  The caption says "the carry from the back tee is 160 yards to the double green, divided in the middle by a trench which, in itself, is part of the green."

So here is still another source that says Yale's Biarritz green contained the swale and the front part -- this time within a few years of opening.       


Jim-I looked at all the photos and read that description with great interest. It seems more plausible that Yale’s Biarritz was always green in the front portion rather than a conversion sometime between the opening in 1926 and early Summer of 1929. Not looking to reignite something that has been debated ad infinitim but interested nonetheless.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Best Biarritz
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2019, 03:42:07 PM »
Any discussion of the best Biarritz should include a nod to Forsgate's. 84 yards from front to back, a thumbprint in the back section, mounds at every corner, and two long, thin tusk bunkers running the entire length of the green. Left Twix and Right Twix as I like to call them:) I'll post a pic tonight.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

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