Did Canada produce the greatest force in golf arch history?

[TEPaul]

"Who designed more siginificant courses than Thompson during that period?"

Tom MacW;

During what period exactly?

[TEPaul]

"What about Horace Hutchinson? He was a major influence on those Heathland men and a major influence on the early American architects."

Tom MacW:

Horace Hutchinson? You think he was one of the greatest forces in the history of architecture?

Hutchinson was a very fine golfer, a really fine writer on golf (and architecture), maybe one of the best golf and architecture writers ever but he wasn’t an architectural innovator—he wasn’t even really an architect. He merely reported exceptionally well on what others in that business were doing and doing well. Macdonald thought very highly of his opinion about many things to do with golf and architecture too but I don’t believe Macdonald ever asked him what he should do architecturally—I think Macdonald sort of came up with that himself as did many other very good architects.

I wonder if this thread isn't starting to wander all over the place. A remark like this;

"I’m not so sure RTJ would have succeeded without Thompson…”,

is nothing much more than a good example of the story of “the nail that feel out of the shoe of the King’s horse thereby bringing down his entire kingdom!” I don’t think RTJ could have succeeded in golf architecture either as well as he did without his mother giving birth to him as well as she did but does that make RTJ’s mother a great force in the history of golf architecture?

As far as an influence on RTJ and his salesmanship and business skills I couldn’t agree more with Tom Doak that RTJ very likely picked that up from Ross as much as anyone else. Ross had a different personality than RTJ did, I’m sure, but no less a flare for salesmanship---maybe even a better flair for it despite his apparent avuncular image. And no one at all can deny that Ross had a sophisticated and interconnected production company going for that time--- employing near 3,000 people at one point.

Some of Ross’s well known hyberbolic saleman-like promises to clients, clubs and such are frankly almost beyond belief for out and out salesmanship. Look at the one preserved by my own club from Ross.

Ross promised the organizers that GMGC would be “…… one of the best inland courses in this country and that it will undoubtedly be a much superior course to any around Philadelphia.”

GMGC has always been a very fine members course and respected in Philly but come on Donald how about a couple of others right around Philly that preceded it like PVGC and Merion East? As far as I can tell Ross probably didn’t spend much more than a week total at GMGC, if that.

Thompson was a great architect and maybe in the top ten of all time with some of what he did but the greatest force in the history of golf architecture? I don’t think so.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I think you might be selling Thompson's impact on RTJ's career short. RTJ admitted he couldn't have picked a worse time to get into golf design, but he was lucky enough to hook up with Thompson in 1930. When others were starting to peter out (or die) Thompson was going strong through that difficult decade.

In hind-sight RTJ's greatest break may have been his writing stint for Herb Graffis (Thompson & Jones opened lots of doors)--the PR machine began then.

I love the old photo of the first ASGCA meeting...half the guys look like they might not make it through lunch....talk about bad timing turning into good timing...no wonder RTJ is smiling.

How much do you know about HGH's writing and design activities?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Thompson with RTJ may have been going strong in the 1930s when not many others were--Maxwell was going pretty strong in the 1930---and obviously that was good for RTJ when he came out in the late 1940s and early 1950s after most all the old guys had dropped by the wayside but I still don't see how or why that would make Thompson the greatest force in the history of golf architecture.

What do I know about Hutchinson? Not much except having  basically read ABOUT him from a series of people and architects as well as having read many bits and pieces by him generally in the books of the others.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I would agree Maxwell was another architect who had work in the 30's--mostly remodelling work.

You said HGH was one of the best architectural writers ever, but he wasn't an innovator--how did you draw that conclusion?

HGH wasn't a golf architect...what do you base that upon?

[henrye]

Thanks Tom D. for pointing out Pete Dye's international influence.  I was unaware of most of it.  When I think of Pete Dye, I think of sculpted courses, undulating greens and water with railway ties - perhaps unfairly, but that has been my experience.  I also think of that experience as a high end modern American style course - again perhaps unfairly.  Lastly, I enjoy those courses and they are great fun to play, but I haven't experienced that style outside the U.S. (I also haven't played golf in many of the locals you mentioned).  Am I way off base?  Does he have a distinct design style?

The influence you refer to which he had on those that you listed - is it his designs or some other factor which makes him particularly influential?

Tom McW. - I was incorrect in mentioning Old Tom Morris.  I was merely trying to say what Ian Andrew said so well about the old course.