[jeffwarne]

In the age of course guides, laser rangefinders, green books, and GPS course maps, to rail against a pole indicating the general direction of play on a blind hole seems to lack some perpective. 

+1

[Bernie Bell]

I have found in 2019 that I also like aiming poles in the middle of the hole.

[corey miller]

I think some are missing the point..... Shouldn't the good golfer (in the example below) be rewarded with a view of the green for the long drive?  Heck I know a par four hole on the same course where the green is blind from the left side (shorter off tee) and in view from the right side...Does that deserve a pole?


Please address below? BTW I am just asking not sure what "perspective" I am missing and kinda sorta feel it is actually more an architecture post than most all presently debated.


An example would be a par 4  I am familiar with  that has a hill ~280 yards from tee that in old times nobody would carry but now a fair percentage of golfers carry and don't receive as much benefit from "seeing the green" on the approach?  Is there a time that these poles should be removed? [/size][/color]

[John Mayhugh]

Sorry, Corey, but I don't understand your question.

In the example that you listed, the "good golfer" does get "rewarded" with a view of the green by virtue of his long drive. Isn't seeing the green a benefit in terms of knowing the hole location and just greater comfort with the shot? You seem to be advocating that removing information for a shorter hitter is somehow rewarding the "good golfer," while in reality it's just punishing a shorter hitter. The shorter hitter might also be a "good golfer," just not a long one.

[Niall C]

Was there not a par three at Prestwick that had an aiming pole ?

The 5th at Prestwick (Himalayas) had a rock (not a pole) near the top of the ridge. Unfortunately, I found it was not always accurately placed.

Pete


You are assuming that the rock is for aiming at rather than just to give you your bearings. For instance if you drive up the left of a fairway with a pole in the fairway for the approach you will know, or at least should be able to work out, that the line is left of the pole. It's just there to give you your bearings.


At Prestwick, and I'm not a member, the members will likely know what line to take relative the tee position and the rock.


Niall

[corey miller]

Phrased poorly perhaps...


From my architecture POV, a aiming pole should only exist on a hole (or for a shot) where everyone would/could benefit from having it for use.  On the same hole there is a bunker that when flirted with provides the best angle (for second shot ).  Shouldn't there be a "reward" for being close to the bunker (or at least on that line)?



I am listening believe me but I am wondering the utility of an "aiming" pole that is only used by % of the players. 


Should the debate be hit a three wood and lay up before the hill/bunker and use the aiming pole or take driver and your second shot will be with a view of the green. 



Is the long aggressive player really being "rewarded" if the short player has an  aiming pole for their shot?

[A.G._Crockett]

Corey,Aren't you talking about two different things here?  I've only seen aiming poles that I recall on blind shots, and on those shots that's typically not the best line; it's the ONLY line.  And to that extent an aiming pole would treat every player pretty much the same, wouldn't it?  The ability to actually hit your shot on that line, of course, will vary, but the line is the line, regardless of playing level.

But isn't what club to use another matter?  I always have to work really hard on the yardage off the tee on #16 at Tobacco Road because there's a lot going on with that shot besides the aiming pole (which I believe is a smokestack top?)  I have to hit enough to clear the first hill, but can't just bang away with driver, though the landing area is quite large.  But all of that is independent of the aiming line, which is the same for everybody.

[John Mayhugh]

Corey,
You sound like a person who drives the ball a long way. Or at least not a short hitter.
The purpose of the aiming marker is so people know which way to hit. It's basic information towards playing the hole. A discomfort with having the weakest player (or shortest player) get more benefit out of it than the "good player" is misguided. I think you want people to know the right direction to hit in or else they will be looking for balls, slowing the game up and enjoying it less.

You're confusing the benefits from having a view of the green with the basic info of where the green is. When your "good player" can see the green, he can use his range finder to get a yardage. He can see what side of the green the hole is on, what sort of slopes the green has, the green's surrounds & hazards, and maybe figure out what to add/subtract due to slope. They get loads of benefit over the weaker player. The only thing they don't get is to keep the location of the green a secret.

[jeffwarne]

Corey, you're assuming an "aiming pole" is equal to a look at the PIN
and introducing your definition of "fairness" to the equation




i disagree with both premises


Players are going to get their line-at least approximately
Do you wish to wait while the shorter/poorly placed hitter walks up for a view?
I would argue you are better off in a match having your opponent use the aiming pole-which is placed for the green(not the day's pin) than having him walk up to see both more clearly.


By your logic there should be no fairway at 80 yards off the tee, or an apron in front of the green since they're only used by a % of the players.

[Thomas Dai]

The old cliche about a hole only being blind once comes to mind.
atb

[Pete_Pittock]

A few aiming poles/stones and bells are plus marks in my book, along with old stone walls and ruins in play.  I don't like aiming poles on holes that are not blind, which for some reason are sometimes found on US resort courses.  My home course has mirrors for blind tee shots on two par 5s.

Bernie,


When I've seen these at US courses they're usually 150 out in the middle of the fairway.

Think those were a "thing" in the mid 90s, at least in Oregon.  Yardage poles, not aiming poles. Cupp/Fought used them on three courses, both Reserve Vineyards and Langdon Farms. Jacobsen/Hardy uses them at Creekside, but I can't remember one at the top of the hill of the only blind tee shot

[Tal Oz]

"I recall a course in Southern California I played that used a mirror on a pole to look down over the hill."

Jeff S. -

The very hilly Presidio GC in San Francisco used to have a mirror on a pole of two of its holes where the tee shots were blind. That was the only way you could tell if the group in front of you had moved on towards the green.
 
DT

Jeff, the 5th hole at Woodland Hills CC (Billy Bell) uses a mirror on a pole where the fairway is blind to the tee.

[Ira Fishman]

Number 16 at Hope Valley has a mirror on the tee. Neither my wife nor I can figure out how to use it though, and she is way smarter than I am.


In terms of safety after a blind tee shot, our home course has a system on two holes where you turn on a red light when you tee off and then hit a button when you clear the landing area and the light turns green.  Of course, you actually need to remember to do both.


Aiming poles on courses that get a lot of visitors or resort guests make all the sense in the world.  The only real problem is that when my shot inevitably veers wildly off line, the psychological impact is magnified.


Ira

[corey miller]

First off I am not a good player, I suck at golf and I am certainly not a long hitter. 


Jeff


I want to eliminate an aiming pole that only half the players use and it is me who is using a new definition of "fairness"? Also have no idea why that leads to any assumptions on my "logic".  It is a simple question....


Should an aiming pole to "help" all golfers put in circa 1930 that shows the line for only players that can't hit a drive 240 still exist.....Thanks for the lecture but just getting your answer which I guess is YES.  And it is me with the weird definition of fairness.


On the same course there is a par 4  dogleg right where a 220 carry to the left part of the fairway gives the player a view of the green.  On the line of charm, the inside of the dogleg the carry is 260 for a view of the green, if not you are blind.  Does this hole deserve a pole also? 


The reason for the question is that I assume historically the poles were put in to help "ALL GOLFERS" not a subset.  And again, a classic era course with a pole that because of tee ball placement, only a few will use/need?


When should a hole have an aiming pole guys?  What circumstances, let's assume we are starting from the beginning? 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Corey, starting at the beginning, I think there should be an aiming pole when the landform gives you no indication where to hit and the shot is fully blind.


If it does, you don’t need an aiming pole.


Only put them in when you need them. Mach Dunes has loads of them. Carne Kilmore has almost as many blind shots but we’ve only put in one. That is on the third hole where the landform naturally pushes you too far right.

[John Mayhugh]

I want to eliminate an aiming pole that only half the players use and it is me who is using a new definition of "fairness"? Also have no idea why that leads to any assumptions on my "logic".  It is a simple question....

Should an aiming pole to "help" all golfers put in circa 1930 that shows the line for only players that can't hit a drive 240 still exist.....Thanks for the lecture but just getting your answer which I guess is YES.  And it is me with the weird definition of fairness.

My argument has nothing to do with the perception of "fairness." You introduced the idea that if the better player could hit a shot that negated the benefit of an aiming pole for him, there is no longer a need for an aiming pole on the hole. This seems absurd to me. The benefit of the aiming pole is so someone less familiar with the hole knows which way the hole goes. It's not intended as a reward for a perfectly placed shot. As Jeff points out, eliminating it is more likely to waste time than to steal some perceived advantage for the better player.

Beyond this, I cannot think of any other way to explain the concept.

When should a hole have one? I can agree with Ally. However, having one in more instances than he describes doesn't bother me. If it helps with pace of play and enjoyment of the round, where's the harm?

[Jerry Kluger]

How often do you play a course for the first time and say "If I had only known about that bunker, water hazard, slope, the lack of fairway depth, etc." I would have played the course so much better.  So the question is if the pole might eliminate one of those regrets is it justifiable or on the other hand, should that particular blind shot should be treated no differently than any other feature which is not known the first time you play a course. I would guess that when the question is posed this way that most would say that it is just another feature which you will learn as you play the course again.  But there may be an exception where that blind shot changes each time you play a hole and you don't want to force the player to walk up to see where the hole is located.   

[Greg Chambers]

"I recall a course in Southern California I played that used a mirror on a pole to look down over the hill."

Jeff S. -

The very hilly Presidio GC in San Francisco used to have a mirror on a pole of two of its holes where the tee shots were blind. That was the only way you could tell if the group in front of you had moved on towards the green.
 
DT

Jeff, the 5th hole at Woodland Hills CC (Billy Bell) uses a mirror on a pole where the fairway is blind to the tee.

Virginia CC has a giant periscope for the same purpose.

[Jeff Schley]

"I recall a course in Southern California I played that used a mirror on a pole to look down over the hill."

Jeff S. -

The very hilly Presidio GC in San Francisco used to have a mirror on a pole of two of its holes where the tee shots were blind. That was the only way you could tell if the group in front of you had moved on towards the green.
 
DT

Jeff, the 5th hole at Woodland Hills CC (Billy Bell) uses a mirror on a pole where the fairway is blind to the tee.

Virginia CC has a giant periscope for the same purpose.

Maybe it was Woodland Hills CC as I have played there a few times.  Stand on the tee box and look into the angled mirror to see over the hill and down the fairway.

[Pete_Pittock]

Was there not a par three at Prestwick that had an aiming pole ?

The 5th at Prestwick (Himalayas) had a rock (not a pole) near the top of the ridge. Unfortunately, I found it was not always accurately placed.

Pete


You are assuming that the rock is for aiming at rather than just to give you your bearings. For instance if you drive up the left of a fairway with a pole in the fairway for the approach you will know, or at least should be able to work out, that the line is left of the pole. It's just there to give you your bearings.
At Prestwick, and I'm not a member, the members will likely know what line to take relative the tee position and the rock.
Niall

Your assumption is not correct. I have known for decades that not being in the center means you need to account for angles.
Plus, the 5th at Prestwick is a par 3 with a not too wide tee. My caddie said to aim over the rock, I hit it over the rock, the caddie gave me my putter to carry and I was in the right side bunker. This was 44 5/12 years ago and I remember it well. Maybe my caddie wasn't paying attention, or the rock had not been moved.

[MCirba]

I'm not sure everyone is debating the same question here.


But I do like directional markers when total  blindness for all is the problem being solved.

[corey miller]

Thank you Mr. Cirba.....


my question was "total blindness for all".....

[James Brown]

Love me a good aiming pole.


The ones I don’t like are the ones I feel like are not needed because it’s not really blind and they put one anyway.

[Duncan Cheslett]

At the third hole at Reddish Vale there are houses to the left of the fairway all the way from tee to green. There is an aiming pole on the right hand side of the fairway 200 yards from the tee - the ground then falls away to the green on the other side of a ravine.


The placing of the aiming pole out to the right is not to indicate the best line to give an advantageous second shot - it is to pull play away from the housing.

Aiming poles and marker posts can have a useful function in health and safety - particularly for visitors, who seem to be able to hit adjacent housing with more efficiency and regularity than members!

[James Bennett]

Duncan Cheslett
At Joondalup in Perth (Western Australia), the last hole of the Lake 9 is a down-hill par 5 with a severe down hill tee shot but with houses right.  There is a large aiming pole on the left  - closer examination reveals the pole is one the line of the left edge of fairway and the left rough!
The course is about 30 years old (Robert Trent Jones Jnr) - from stell-shafted persimmon era.
James B

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