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Mike Davidson

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Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2019, 01:24:06 PM »
Sven, first thanks so much for this, I am learning so much and this thread will be a tremendous ongoing resource.  Secondly, will you be recognizing Watchung Valley Golf Club as a Raynor? 


Per their history:
https://www.watchungvalleygc.com/history


However, this sheds a different light:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49482.msg1601310.html#msg1601310

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2019, 01:56:32 PM »
Who decides provenance?  And who decides who decides provenance?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2019, 02:04:58 PM »
Who decides provenance?  And who decides who decides provenance?


Going to nip this in the bud here, as this thread has been an attempt to lay out the contemporaneous record of Raynor's career.


If anyone wants to debate the provenance of a particular course, please do so in another thread.  If anything relevant results, I'll note it here.


This thread is still very much a work in progress, and I have been continually updating each listing.  There is still a lot to be added, including notes on club records and information from other sources.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike Davidson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2019, 02:10:08 PM »
Fair enough, can I assume based on your current list so far that you are not planning to include them unless you find evidence to the contrary?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor New
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2019, 03:14:04 PM »
Fair enough, can I assume based on your current list so far that you are not planning to include them unless you find evidence to the contrary?

As I said, there is a lot to be added.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:12:22 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2019, 04:37:36 PM »
With regards to Dedham, it was Brian Silva, who after walking the course, told the club that Raynor or Banks was involved. The club scorecard listed Alex Findlay as the architect. Silva's assertions were dismissed until a member working on the club history discovered records of Raynor's work. Ironically, and thankfully, it was Silva who was brought in to resurrect as as much off  the Raynor course as could be done. There is a good history of Raynor's involvement at Dedham in the club's history book. At this location, first course was a Ross nine. Fowler came in but project was halted because of money issues. By the time money was raised, Fowler was back in England and Raynor was hired. He used some Fowler and Ross hole corridors but created and entirely new layout.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor New
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2019, 12:46:28 PM »
I've maxed out the 1925 listing, so going to include any additional articles on those courses here.


North Palm Beach (Palm Beach Winter Club/New Everglades Club)


A 1950 article on Harry Kelsey describing his involvement with the project.


April 2, 1950 Palm Beach Post -






Mid-Pacific

Oct. 20, 1928 Honolulu Star-Bulletin -






Fishers Island

Second course plan -

« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:18:58 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #107 on: October 07, 2019, 07:48:20 PM »

Like many of his peers, Raynor never accumulated a net worth that we would consider staggering.  When he passed away in 1926, at the prime of his career and after a number of years of non-stop work, his estate was only worth $48,363 (around $700,000 in today's dollars).


Despite living in a world of financiers, railroad builders and the eternally wealthy, Raynor belonged to a more modest set.  His Southampton roots date back to a time before the neighborhood had become a fashionable getaway spot for New York's elite (and perhaps CBM and the crowd he brought out that way are partially responsible for turning the Hamptons into what they are). 


It is hard to say if he his career was more lucrative as a golf architect than it would have been if he had stayed a surveyor.  There certainly would have been work for him on Long Island, as post-WWI was a period of massive real estate expansion out of the city.


It is also hard to say if what the impact on the golf world would have been if he had opted for a different route.  It seems unlikely that his portfolio of courses would have been built by CBM on his own, and we probably never would have met Charles Banks and Ralph Barton in this arena.


Jan. 5, 1928 The County Review -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Re-engineering Raynor
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2019, 05:13:08 AM »

Like many of his peers, Raynor never accumulated a net worth that we would consider staggering.  When he passed away in 1926, at the prime of his career and after a number of years of non-stop work, his estate was only worth $48,363 (around $700,000 in today's dollars).


Despite living in a world of financiers, railroad builders and the eternally wealthy, Raynor belonged to a more modest set.  His Southampton roots date back to a time before the neighborhood had become a fashionable getaway spot for New York's elite (and perhaps CBM and the crowd he brought out that way are partially responsible for turning the Hamptons into what they are). 


It is hard to say if he his career was more lucrative as a golf architect than it would have been if he had stayed a surveyor.  There certainly would have been work for him on Long Island, as post-WWI was a period of massive real estate expansion out of the city.


It is also hard to say if what the impact on the golf world would have been if he had opted for a different route.  It seems unlikely that his portfolio of courses would have been built by CBM on his own, and we probably never would have met Charles Banks and Ralph Barton in this arena.


Jan. 5, 1928 The County Review -


On another note the tax bill was only 1.3% of his estate.  Good times.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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