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Craig Disher

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Mike_Young

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2019, 09:41:21 PM »
listening now...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2019, 11:31:06 PM »
Really good - thanks for bringing it to our attention, Craig.
Well done, Bob - always knew you were an excellent writer, but you're also a very fine communicator.
And, built in bonus, with that charming accent -- or is it the rest of us who have accents :) -- it feels like I'm listening to someone who used to share a few drinks with Bobby Jones, or could've done the voice for one of the historic figures from The Civil War series. Plus, I have a new word/thought through which to describe what a good golf course offers a lot of, ie Drama.
thanks
Best
Peter

Adam Clayman

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2019, 09:50:23 AM »
Fascinating facets that should be a must listen for anyone with control over any aspect of Golf, its fields, competitions, and it's rules.


Isn't it great that a proponent for freedom, in the playing of the sport, can be so dictatorial as it relates to the rules and the importance of equity.


Who knew we'd end up at the duality of man.


Great Job Bob (and Garrett). I could listen to this kind of intellectual honesty all day everyday.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »
Neat post there, Adam.


I've been thinking more about 'Drama' as a lens into gca.


The courses I haven't liked are Melodramatic. 
The courses I play most often are TV Dramas.
The courses I'd like to one day play and/or play more often are Period Dramas.
A very good course I played once was a Kitchen Sink Drama. It fit my temperament, but was maybe a bit 'cramped' for everyday.
I think sometimes awards/top rankings these days go to Hollywood Dramas.
My tastes run more toward New York Drama (though I don't think there's such a term) - you know, Sidney Lumet. 


 


BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2019, 12:16:53 PM »
Thanks for the kind words guys.


Peter - I was surprised by my southern accent too. I asked Betsy if that is how I sound and she confirmed it was. So I am now over my illusion that I sound like Edward R. Murrow.


As for approaching gca as a kind of drama, I'd opt for Jane Austen as Low's model (though I have no idea if he ever read her). Her novels are about, among other things, sorting through the meaning of different marriage prospects, being ultimately in error about some and being surprised (in both good and bad ways) by others. 


Golf courses - and I think Low might sign on to this - ought to operate on the player in similar ways. A number of playing possibilities stretch out before you, some look enticing but dangerous, others look safer but insipid. And though you can't be sure how much you understanding about any of them, you have to pick one. You have to play the next shot when it is your turn notwithstanding incomplete, sometimes contradictory, knowledge of what will happen next. 


Something like was at the heart of Low's idea of 'drama' or 'adventure'. And the better the golf course, the more such delicious anxieties it serves up. 


Bob

Adam Clayman

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2019, 02:33:38 PM »
Peter, The heart of one matter that matters to the gca is how more committed the golfer becomes to the sport, when he isn't mollycoddled with 18 easy stakes in the ground. The quirk provides the game's drama and nature provides the quirk.


It would appear Low instinctively knew that handing the task-at-hand over, without the the varied vagaries, would lead to the complement of the pampered  that comprise most of the current customers.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 07:37:03 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2019, 02:49:42 PM »
More really good posts, Adam and Bob. (Jane Austen seems to me a terrific analogy.)
John Low sure took the game seriously, didn't he? And the architecture too. And from what I've read and heard (from Bob's writing & talking), seriously in just the right way and measure.
Peter   

Adam Clayman

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2019, 03:33:35 PM »
I truly am just so grateful for the time and research Bob has done. My mind is blown it breaks down geographically and politically.


 I suppose we who anxiously await the day they turn off the irrigation, for the winter, should just keep our minds open and accept the big world theory on a spiritual, almost neighborly religious level. Because, after all, sometime it does rain.


Bob, On the subject of the 1891 debate over loss of hole. Was a major tenet, leading up to that time, to finish the hole with the same ball you started? Ergo, the source of his adamancy?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »
Adam -


Yes, finishing a hole with the same ball played from the tee was seen to be important. So much so that if you couldn't, you lost the hole. It was a rule in the old St Andrews code (though there was some debate about how old the rule really was).


Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2019, 05:05:15 PM »
Bob, that makes perfect sense to me: on a waterless site, the lost ball was akin to a mortal not merely venial sin; or in an Austen context, it was not only socially awkward but downright rude!
P

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2019, 05:19:15 PM »
Gentlemen,


This is a wondrous thread! The mellifluous voice of Crosby on Low was terrific.  I feel as though I should be pulling my chair up to the fire, lighting up my pipe and settling in.  But in today's world I just have to don my earphones, settle into my chair on the verandah and surrender myself to a modern day raconteur!
Thank you Bob.
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2019, 05:28:07 PM »
Yes, it is akin to an Austen scene in which a rich, eligible duke walks into the parlour of a beautiful young woman who immediately spills wine down the front of her dress. Some things are irredeemable, fair or unfair.


Bob
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 08:41:00 AM by BCrosby »

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2019, 07:29:48 PM »
Fabulous flashback to the Dixie Cup where I met Bob Crosby and Mike Young. Thanks Bob.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike_Young

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2019, 10:04:02 PM »
Fabulous flashback to the Dixie Cup where I met Bob Crosby and Mike Young. Thanks Bob.
Mike S,I hope you can tell that I have taught Bob everything he knows about the John Low dude and the other golf things... ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 09:50:15 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2019, 08:47:44 AM »
Thanks Mike S.


As for Mike Y., I don't know how to express my indebtedness to you, so maybe it's best I say nothing.  :D


Bob

Thomas Dai

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2019, 08:52:36 AM »
I certainly enjoyed listened (and importantly learning) so many thanks Bob.
Atb

Mike_Young

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2019, 09:51:01 AM »
Thanks Mike S.


As for Mike Y., I don't know how to express my indebtedness to you, so maybe it's best I say nothing.  :D


Bob
I'm humbled... :D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dave McCollum

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2019, 12:24:00 PM »
I've often wished I'd gotten bitten by the golf bug early on instead of all those other sports.  I never thought of sitting at the TCC or Myopia during those turbulent times at Harvard.  Wow, what a concept which, of course, I can easily imagine.  It took most of us many years get over it. I'm glad you did even if it seems a little strange we ended up here.  Well done.


Dave 

BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2019, 09:38:02 AM »
Dave -

I was hoping you would chime in. It sounds crazy now, but at the time playing golf seemed wildly irresponsible. (Maybe it was different for you football players.) I was reluctant to admit I was on the team with all the turmoil going on. It seemed like a historic moment and that I had an obligation to participate in it. Disappearing for days to practice or play matches was somehow shirking that duty. (And if you think I was taking things too seriously, I will agree with you up to a point. But that is how I lived it.) There were also issues about how golf was perceived by classmates. I learned not to mention I was on the golf team to any girl I might want to take out. It was not just ‘not cool’, it was a conversation stopper. (I confess that I did think often about getting back to the CC to fetch my clubs, especially my beautiful, beloved bamboo-shafted Otey Crisman putter. But I never went back. I hope they found a good home.)

When I started playing again many years later, all that baggage was still there, banging around in my head. I'd guess it will always be there. But the world outside golf was by then much less chaotic. It was possible to take the time to play and let the golf bubble envelope you as you step to the first tee, all without second thoughts. (Heck, I even found a wife willing to talk about it. ;>)) Like many people, I enjoyed playing more than ever once the competitive aspects got toned down.

I sometimes wonder if all that influenced my interest in the history of the game. It certainly brought home to me that golf always exists in a specific historical context and that whatever that context is, it has a direct bearing on how the game is perceived and experienced. That context is rarely acknowledged, but it also influences how the game deals with rules, implements and golf architecture from one era to the next. John Low, for example, sensed keenly his own historical moment (now called the Edwardian Age) and it shaped many of his views. Tom Doak has written about being aware of where he might fit in the history of golf architecture when setting out on his career. But those are topics for another time.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2019, 05:01:35 PM »
Bob, Dave - yes, probably a topic for another time. But for me one of much interest, and relevance. I add nothing to this website or to the vast majority of threads here, and never have. But of this I’m convinced, and it’s very probably the only thing I have in common with the Lows and Behrs of the world: golf architecture ‘means something’ — something certainly more than simply an art-craft or merely a vehicle to support a game. It represents and reflects an ethos, and an ‘Age’. And while I don’t have a name for it, we’re just as much part of our ‘Age’ as Low was part of his, the Edwardian Age. The difference: Low seemed to *know* that it all meant something, and so treated it not as we often do here — ie as yet another opportunity to compile yet another laundry list of essentially meaningless ‘data’, eg the best Par 4 sandwiched between a long Par 3 and a short Par 5, built before 1940 but after 1930, and east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason-Dixon line — but seriously, as having both its own self-contained value system and a dialectical relationship with the Age as a whole.
Do you want to know what kind of Age we’re living in, and our ethos and some of what’s important to us? Tell me about the American courses that have won the most praise and topped the ‘best of’ lists over the last 15 years — where they are, what they charge, who they are marketed to, what they look like, how many acres they encompass, what kind of golf they provide and demand — and I think we’ll have at least one ‘image’ of who we are, both as people and as golfers.
And then use *that* as a starting point for discussions on 'quality golf course architecture' and what makes for a 'great course' and maybe at least a few posters here -- including you two Harvard boys -- will be able to contribute, just like Low did, some thoughts/ideas of genuine & lasting value to this marvelous art-craft and this wonderful game.   
Peter

« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 05:57:49 PM by Peter Pallotta »

ward peyronnin

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2019, 07:49:55 PM »
Very enjoyable all of this. Worthy writing and speaking. Bob uncovers the foundations of what amounts to the Renaissance -a time when Fra Angelica, Da Vinci, etc who apperceived perspective, proportion, realism and other underlying and fundamental principals-of the nature of playing golf.

Bob are you able to reveal more of what Low's attitude was to something specifically mentioned that I personally struggle with that being hidden hazards.The conversation is all about bunkers where one has a chance for recovery with no mention of lakes, spoil/quarry's, high rough that are catastrophic.I have no problem with a bunker one can, once a hole is played, fix an alternative bee line. Bunkers screened by bunkers or the above mentioned don't really allow for a determination of relative risk IMO. And maybe Low was only referring to bunkers that are measurably, whether directly or indirectly, placed?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

BCrosby

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Re: Bob Crosby on John Low, and other things
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2019, 08:00:05 AM »
Peter -


As a historical comparison, it is interesting to note that there were no equivalents during the Golden Age to the detailed course ranking systems that appear today in every golf magazine. (Joshua Crane is a minor exception to that. But then his ranking system was disliked by everyone.) That is a window on a different mind set.


Low, Simpson, MacK, Ambrose and other commentators on gca had their favorite courses, but none was tempted to do rankings. Instead, and this is what makes the Golden Age so special, they talked about how bunker locations affected play or how the contours of a hole changed how you played it and so forth. They talked about the relationship between architectural features and golfers. They talked about the intersection between golfers and architecture and why some designs offer up better, richer golfing experiences than others.


These days discussions of gca are impoverished by comparison. As you note, it tends to be a bunch of data points. Or how pretty the course is. (Think Matt Ginella, Ron Whitten and mass circulation golf magazine approach to gca.) Doak is a happy exception to all that. I agree with Tom's wife, the Confidential Guide would be a better book without the ranking numbers. His commentary is what makes the book.


Those differences are in important ways differences due to living in a different historical moment than Low's or Simpson's. But knowing that should, ideally, make it easier for people to break out of our current context. There have been other, maybe better, ways to approach the subject of golf architecture. There is no reason not to learn from them. 


Ward -


Low didn't say much about blindness. My sense is that by the end of the Golden Age (Low was by then very ill and wrote little) the feeling seemed to be blindness was ok if in small doses. His dictum "no bunker is unfair" was generally part of discussions where the bunkers were in clear view. (16th at TOC). OTOH, he loved TOC and Hoylake, courses with any number of obscured sight lines.


Bob           

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