[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,
you've played all the courses you mention, and you're a good player - so to me you'd be the best person to answer a question that I have:
from the outside looking in, I've often thought that, even with very good courses (which all of these are), there are at least two different ways to use the terrain and fit the course seamlessly into the landscape... while also providing for an exceptional game of golf:
One way is to use the terrain and the natural features to seamlessly route a consistently flowing course that offers playability for all, even if that means leaving out (what would've been) one or two exceptionally intriguing/strategic and challenging golf holes and the 'shot tests' that go with them
Another way is to focus on having as many exceptionally intriguing/strategic and challenging golf holes and the 'shot tests' that go with them as possible, and to use the terrain with that focus primarily in mind, even if it means sacrificing/leaving out (what would've been) the most flowing of routings and the most consistently seamless use of natural features.
The ideal, it would seem to me, would be a course that balances those two goals/areas of focus.
So my question:
Of the courses you mentioned, which architect seems to you to have best used the terrain in such 'balance'?
Those are all top flight courses by leading architects, not a single one of which I've played -- so I'd much appreciate your POV on this.
Peter
   

Peter, I'm not sure I am the best person to ask. I'm a learner not an expert. But, TD at Stone Eagle had to maneuver the land probably more than he would like and the course feels natural. At Castle Pines I am sure JN had to move a bunch of dirt. You can tell but the course still flows in the very hilly mt terrain. I would guess that C&C didn't move a spoonful of dirt at Hidden Creek but they must have had to flatten out fairways a bit at Colorado GC. On all the courses I mentioned I think the designer did an exceptional job making the course feel like it fits in with the landscape.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Routing a course is na enigma. Whenever I play a new course I ask myself about how I would have routed it. Very seldom do I come up with anything. At Hidden Creek Bill Coore walked the land for three weeks before he had a clue as to the routing. There is no way any of us could rout a course and make it look natural without trial and error for years. I think that's what the owners of Pikewood National did. They built only a few holes a year. I wonder when they had the full routing.
I have no clue how TD could have routed the Loop. I would have lost my mind.

[Ira Fishman]

Routing a course is na enigma. Whenever I play a new course I ask myself about how I would have routed it. Very seldom do I come up with anything. At Hidden Creek Bill Coore walked the land for three weeks before he had a clue as to the routing. There is no way any of us could rout a course and make it look natural without trial and error for years. I think that's what the owners of Pikewood National did. They built only a few holes a year. I wonder when they had the full routing.
I have no clue how TD could have routed the Loop. I would have lost my mind.

For me, routing is an enigma wrapped in a mystery. After I play a course, especially a well routed one, I marvel that nothing was there except the wilderness before what I played is now there. It seems clear only in retrospect. I cannot imagine wandering around, looking at topo maps, and figuring it out.


Ira

[archie_struthers]

 


TD ,  I dost think thou protests too much relative to Mr Flynn.  Merion may have been a collaborative effort but whoever finished that job did wonders. As to Rolling Green , Woodcrest, Lehigh ,Philly CC et al  they are all pretty special!


I neglected two pretty good ones in Lancaster and Shinnecock , and the Country Club is one I haven't had the pleasure of visiting. Indian Creek is easy to look at and plays benign most of the time but you could play it everyday and never get bored. That it's totally manufactured and looks so natural is even more impressive. He's still my all time favorite given my roots and the consistency of his work!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pretty much every Fowler course I play I marvel at the routing and how well it fits the land. Maybe Mark Rowlinson can post something about Bull Bay in Wales.

[Sean_A]

I don't know the answer to the question. All I can say is which courses I think use what is given extremely well. I would also add that if 18 and 9 holes weren't such a codified part of the game that it is likely a great many more courses would have used the terrain to greater effect.

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't know the answer to the question. All I can say is which courses I think use what is given extremely well. I would also add that if 18 and 9 holes weren't such a codified part of the game that it is likely a great many more courses would have used the terrain to greater effect.

Ciao

I wonder how bringing the course back to the clubhouse after hole nine affects the routing. Pat Ruddy has changed the routing for the European club for championships. He is substituting hole 12a for hole 2. That means that hole nine becomes hole eight. Eight returns to the clubhouse not nine.

[Sean_A]

Tommy

I could never wrap my head around the two loops of 9 mantra except for publics with 9 hole rates. I can fully understand privates having two starting points near the house, but it isn't necessary (nor ideal imo) to have two loops of 9. I think 12/6,13/5 or 14/4 are better suited for privates. But any set in stone configuration of holes handcuffs an archie. The question is down to what folks think is most important. I value multiple access to a course from very near the house so I would be willing to sacrifice some quality for this. Same for the 18th green near the house. It's another reason why I think greatness is over - rated.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Fazio made the most of the land at Pine Barrens.

WW

If by that you mean got fixated in the sand quarry and then forgot how to route his way out of both nines, sure.

That two-acre crossover between #1 and 2, then again at #6 and 7, then yet again at #11 and 12, followed once and for all at #17 and 18 sure is compelling though! 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy

I could never wrap my head around the two loops of 9 mantra except for publics with 9 hole rates. I can fully understand privates having two starting points near the house, but it isn't necessary (nor ideal imo) to have two loops of 9. I think 12/6,13/5 or 14/4 are better suited for privates. But any set in stone configuration of holes handcuffs an archie. The question is down to what folks think is most important. I value multiple access to a course from very near the house so I would be willing to sacrifice some quality for this. Same for the 18th green near the house. It's another reason why I think greatness is over - rated.

Ciao


Sod privates want two loops of nine so they can send groups off on both nines on busy weekends when guys want early tee times. My old club did that and gave them 2:10 to finish. If not done they walk off the nine they were playing. It actually worked.

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