PESTS GS: BUDA CUP XVIII (2020) @ KINGTON & WELSHPOOL

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean - I’m pulling the plug as well due to the quarantine restrictions. Like Mayhugh, if something should change I’ll try to reschedule, but it doesn’t seem possible now. I’ll email you my bank details.

[mike_malone]

Sean - I’m pulling the plug as well due to the quarantine restrictions. Like Mayhugh, if something should change I’ll try to reschedule, but it doesn’t seem possible now. I’ll email you my bank details.

When Whitty pulls the plug the whole wall falls down.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sean - I’m pulling the plug as well due to the quarantine restrictions. Like Mayhugh, if something should change I’ll try to reschedule, but it doesn’t seem possible now. I’ll email you my bank details.

When Whitty pulls the plug the whole wall falls down.

Mayday - I’m crushed. The Buda is hard etched on my diary every year. I said once that I would only miss the Buda if I was dead (or at least physically unable to attend). I can’t believe a virus has so disrupted our lives. Makes me want to volunteer for the Russian vaccine.  NOT!

[mike_malone]

Come to Philly. We’ll take care of you

[Michael Whitaker]

Mayday - maybe we should organize a USA “Buda” to appease our brethren.

[mike_malone]

Well you the best man for that. I would gladly help.


We have 3 Brits that are members of my club. There’s a start.

[Ben Stephens]

Sean - I’m pulling the plug as well due to the quarantine restrictions. Like Mayhugh, if something should change I’ll try to reschedule, but it doesn’t seem possible now. I’ll email you my bank details.

When Whitty pulls the plug the whole wall falls down.

Mayday - I’m crushed. The Buda is hard etched on my diary every year. I said once that I would only miss the Buda if I was dead (or at least physically unable to attend). I can’t believe a virus has so disrupted our lives. Makes me want to volunteer for the Russian vaccine.  NOT!

Whitty

Boy I am glad we are not playing against each other competitively this year  as this is the last year we Brits play with the old handicap system CONGU as we are moving onto the new version this November and it probably allows me for a higher new handicap (as I am more of a social golfer these days) which will probably bring in an element of fairness for all of us handicap wise next year.

Hope Sean reorganises Kington BUDA next year as I have been meaning to go there for ages.

Stay safe!

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

Why not come this year?

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Ben

Why not come this year?

Ciao

Yes.  This.

[Michael Whitaker]

Ben - I thought you guys had already moved to the “World” handicap. For us, our handicaps went down a bit as only 8 of 20 scores are used rather than 10 of 20. The change should make for some fun matches.


As Mark and Sean say, you should attend this year. Don’t miss this great trip if you can help it.

[ward peyronnin]

As those of you know who are on the whatsapp or whatever  platform know I too will have to withdraw,=. Thoughts of QT-ing in a hotel watching British soaps and football reruns for two weeks are simply insufferable. I so looked forward to refreshing old ties AND the venue . My daughter lives in Philly so I am in if we venue there as a substitute and thanks Mayday.Whoever has my deposits a return would be useful. Aurevoir my friens
CheersChez Wardo

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sad news will miss you all.


Will organise returns later this week, duly away from home.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

Why not come this year?

Ciao

Can't make it this year as I live with my dad and not risking going too far due to Covid-19 

[Ben Stephens]

Ben - I thought you guys had already moved to the “World” handicap. For us, our handicaps went down a bit as only 8 of 20 scores are used rather than 10 of 20. The change should make for some fun matches.


As Mark and Sean say, you should attend this year. Don’t miss this great trip if you can help it.

We haven't moved to the 'World' handicap system yet it should be November this year in England not too sure about the other areas of the UK. So it will be interesting to see what the GB + I handicaps will be like next year and surely there will be no constructive discussions about the foreigners' handicaps 

[Michael Whitaker]

Ben - I thought you guys had already moved to the “World” handicap. For us, our handicaps went down a bit as only 8 of 20 scores are used rather than 10 of 20. The change should make for some fun matches.


As Mark and Sean say, you should attend this year. Don’t miss this great trip if you can help it.

We haven't moved to the 'World' handicap system yet it should be November this year in England not too sure about the other areas of the UK. So it will be interesting to see what the GB + I handicaps will be like next year and surely there will be no constructive discussions about the foreigners' handicaps 

Well, with your courses having Slope ratings our “indexes” will yield a Course Handicap that makes sense. The big positive for our group is that the Brits will now understand what an “index” is all about. That was the main point of contention in the past... IMHO.

[Ian Galbraith]

Well, with your courses having Slope ratings our “indexes” will yield a Course Handicap that makes sense. The big positive for our group is that the Brits will now understand what an “index” is all about. That was the main point of contention in the past... IMHO.

Just for devilment I looked up the slope for Kington (115 off the whites and 111 off the yellows) so it would have made no difference at all this year anyhow    !

[Michael Whitaker]

Well, with your courses having Slope ratings our “indexes” will yield a Course Handicap that makes sense. The big positive for our group is that the Brits will now understand what an “index” is all about. That was the main point of contention in the past... IMHO.

Just for devilment I looked up the slope for Kington (115 off the whites and 111 off the yellows) so it would have made no difference at all this year anyhow    !

Ian - according to my GHIN app there would be two shots difference between the tees on my course handicap at Kington:  Whites = 9  Yellow = 7

[Ulrich Mayring]

The funny thing is that the rating game now means something different: jockey for a high (or low) course rating and slope to appease your members.

Some members want very low course rating and slope, because it means their handicap will travel well. Others want to be members of a "premium" club with a "supremely difficult" course, so they clamor for a high course rating and slope. The superintendent is then tasked to set up the course for the raters, i. e. mow the rough or let it grow in, set the tees forward or backwards etc.

[Michael Whitaker]

The funny thing is that the rating game now means something different: jockey for a high (or low) course rating and slope to appease your members.

Some members want very low course rating and slope, because it means their handicap will travel well. Others want to be members of a "premium" club with a "supremely difficult" course, so they clamor for a high course rating and slope. The superintendent is then tasked to set up the course for the raters, i. e. mow the rough or let it grow in, set the tees forward or backwards etc.

Ulrich - the slope and course ratings are determined by a "rating team" (usually 4-6 people) who strictly follow a formula from a manual. I can tell you from experience that about 95% of a course's rating/slope comes from distance calculations. Very little is determined by "set up," or rough, or mowing patterns. Not sure how the UK version of a rating will be adjusted for links courses, but links don't fit the normal formula, IMO. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.


There have been threads on GCA in the past about Slope & Course Ratings and whether or not archies take them into account when designing (or remodeling) a course. Now that the rest of the world will be using Slope and Course Ratings it might be interesting to look back at those old threads.

[Ian Galbraith]

Ian - according to my GHIN app there would be two shots difference between the tees on my course handicap at Kington:  Whites = 9  Yellow = 7

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20086 has for Kington

course ratings which differ by 1 between whites and yellows. My point was mainly that the slope for both tees is so close to the magic 113 that it doesn't change the handicap index hardly at all. 

[Michael Whitaker]

Ian - according to my GHIN app there would be two shots difference between the tees on my course handicap at Kington:  Whites = 9  Yellow = 7

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20086 has for Kington

Club/Course NameCityState

Kington Golf Club (1009562) - KingtonHerefordshireGB-SHR

Tee NameGenderPar
Course Rating
(18)
Bogey Rating
(18)
Slope Rating
(18)Front (9)Back (9)

WhiteM7068.5[/t][/c]89.8 115 33.8 / 10734.7 / 123 YellowM7067.5[/t][/c]88.2 111 33.2 / 10534.3 / 117 Red 2019F7169.4[/t][/c]97.0 117 34.2 / 11435.2 / 120 So course rating differs by 1 between whites and yellows. My point was mainly that the slope for both tees is so close to the magic 113 that it doesn't change the handicap index hardly at all.

Ian - the "index" belongs to the player. not the course. The index yields a "Course Handicap" based on three factors of the course... course rating, slope rating and par. Par is a new factor in the calculation with the introduction of the World Handicap. My index is currently 9.9. According to the World Handicap formula my course handicap at Kington is calculated as a 9 on the White and 7 on the Yellow:

White Course Rating = 68.5  Slope = 115  Par = 70
Yellow Course Rating = 67.5  Slope = 111  Par = 70

The calculation is Index x (Slope Rating/113) + (Course Rating- Par)

So, for me, the calculation for the White tee is: 9.9 x (115/113) + (68.5-70) = 8.575  (Which rounds up to 9)

[Garland Bayley]

Well, with your courses having Slope ratings our “indexes” will yield a Course Handicap that makes sense. The big positive for our group is that the Brits will now understand what an “index” is all about. That was the main point of contention in the past... IMHO.

Just for devilment I looked up the slope for Kington (115 off the whites and 111 off the yellows) so it would have made no difference at all this year anyhow    !

I take this to mean that since Dean Knuth (Pope of Slope) devised handicapping used 113 as an average course, and USGA handicap indexes have always given a number assuming you were playing a course with a slope rating of 113, then the closeness of the Kington ratings to 113 means Americans course handicaps at Kington would have varied little from their handicap index.

EDIT: Is see by Ian's followup post that he intended what I interpreted.

[Garland Bayley]

Well, with your courses having Slope ratings our “indexes” will yield a Course Handicap that makes sense. The big positive for our group is that the Brits will now understand what an “index” is all about. That was the main point of contention in the past... IMHO.

Just for devilment I looked up the slope for Kington (115 off the whites and 111 off the yellows) so it would have made no difference at all this year anyhow    !

Ian - according to my GHIN app there would be two shots difference between the tees on my course handicap at Kington:  Whites = 9  Yellow = 7

But that is only because now the handicaps are normalized to par. In the past it is highly likely that your handicap would have been the same from both whites and yellows.

[Michael Whitaker]

Well, Garland, I thought we were talking about what is NOW, not what used to be.


As I know you know, Garland, the
Index is just a reference number... it’s not your handicap for a given course. That concept has been hard to get across in the past. Now that everyone is on the same system it should clear up all the haggling over handicaps at the Buda... sadly, I’m going to miss the pub wrangling.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I suspect that many CONGU handicaps will go down considerably, because now it is best 8 of last 20. Previously those 12 other rounds were also factored into the handicap, now they are just ignored.

There's a different philosophy in the WHS: they want your handicap index to reflect your potential, not your actual performances.