Best Mountain Course?

[Mark_Fine]

For a site that seems to hate/despise the various magazine rankings, we do a lot our own rankings/listings here of what we consider the best of something.  I would be willing to bet there is no way in hell this site could agree on the Top 10 Mountain Courses in the U.S., probably not even the Top 5 and surely not which one is #1.  Not a chance.  Basically this thread will provide a nice list a very good Mountain Courses.  It will be a good source of ideas for anyone looking for which ones to seek out courses to play.  There will be great choices (I like many of those that have already been mentioned) as well as some that are good but only relative to what that person has seen.  Kind of like the Magazine lists     

[Tom Bacsanyi]

What actually is a "mountain" course is a bit hard to define.  For example, here in my area we have Country Club of the Rockies which is right at the base of a ski resort, however it is flat as a pancake.  Is it a mountain course?  Meanwhile, Red Sky has two courses literally built into the side of a mountain, with large elevation changes throughout.  Vail Golf Club is dead flat except for a goat track up to a par 3 tee but is surrounded by 11,000-13,000 foot peaks closely on all sides.  Is it a mountain course?  Cordillera has 3 courses, the Summit, the Mountain, and the Valley, and all are laid over somewhat severe terrain.


Over in the Roaring Fork Valley (toward Aspen) the bulk of their courses are actually quite flat, and are more "river" courses in a sense than "mountain" courses.


Up toward Steamboat you have Haymaker which is actually quite dunesy/linksy in a sense, but has little overall vertical, while right next store you have Catamount which is one of the most severe sites I have seen.  Most of the fairways could be blue ski runs!


Anyway, I'll submit that Frost Creek (I mentioned it in the other thread regarding unmentioned great courses) is the best in my area based on design/bones.  Kind of a true mountain course on the front 9 but more of a river course on the back 9.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen--As I said, haven't been to Gozzer.  The houses in that development certainly resemble the "mountain architecture" found in places like Sun Valley and Tahoe.

Yea its all good Dave, wasn't trying to throw shade.  At least half the courses in the Spokane/northern Idaho look like that with the preponderance of pine trees in that general area.  I don't associate pine trees with mountain golf per se, even if its often the case.  But I certainly would call Stone Eagle a mountain course, fairly severe terrain in a few spots, and I wouldn't try to walk it...

P.S.  I also wouldn't call Edgewood a mountain course either as its fairly flattish.

[Jon Wiggett]

For me this used to be Buergenstock in Switzerland which was a fabulous 9 holer set into the mountainside. Though it was on the slope of a quite steep section it was very playable. The course had several very challenging and interesting holes without any poor ones and together with the clubhouse was an enchanting place to play the game of golf.


Alas, the course was 'upgraded' along with the hotels and the design company did a computer generated hatchet job on it. It has lost most of its charm along with all of its wonderful green complexes.


Jon

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Engh designed lots of mountain courses, many of which are said to be fun, artistic and interesting.

[Ira Fishman]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Kapalua Plantation yet.  Not a favorite of mine, but it is a mountain course set on the Ocean.


Or Yale which might as well be in the mountains.


Ira

[Tommy Williamsen]

One fun "mt" course is King Kamehameha. It is high up on Maui and has bi-coastal views. It is a great place to play and gets little ink.

[Jason Topp]

So, is there a mountain course that is walkable?   I believe Lookout Mountain is, but it's been a while.   

We walked Clear Creek each day for three days.  It is a pleasant walk.  You go downhill fast and then slowly work your way back up.

[Tom_Doak]

This is a hard discussion to have because everyone's definition of a "mountain" course tends to be different.


I have visited a high % of the courses mentioned so far [and walked all of them] and they are all fine courses, it just depends on your definition of "mountain".


The one glaring omission in the discussion is Jasper Park.  You can argue back and forth about whether Banff Springs [in the valley and right up against the mountains] is a mountain course or not, but Jasper DEFINITELY is, and it's the equal of any course mentioned here.


I am very fond of both Stone Eagle and Rock Creek, and believe they are among my best work, or would be if they were next to an ocean.  /s

[David Kelly]

Is Stone Eagle walkable?

I've walked it but I'd bet 99% of rounds are in carts.

[Kalen Braley]

Any course is walkable if you're in good enough shape.....

GCAer Jordan Wall, who hikes the Colorado mountains on a near daily basis, can do 54 holes on the toughest mountain course you can imagine...its all relative.

[Tom_Doak]

Is Stone Eagle walkable?

I've walked it but I'd bet 99% of rounds are in carts.

That may be, I'm not sure.  (Mr. Koch does not walk it.)  But a lot of the members take a caddie and a cart, and walk most of the course, with the caddie driving the cart. 


The last time I played there, it was with three members from Tara Iti, including my client, who are all 70 years old, and they all walked the entire course.  Mr. Kayne made a joke about whether waiting to see if his heart rate had come down before he hit his tee ball counted as illegal technological aid under the Rules of Golf.

[David Kelly]

Is Stone Eagle walkable?

I've walked it but I'd bet 99% of rounds are in carts.

....Mr. Kayne made a joke about whether waiting to see if his heart rate had come down before he hit his tee ball counted as illegal technological aid under the Rules of Golf.

:-)  There are a lot of shortcuts you can take to cut down on the walk and the only really nutbuster is walking up 6 and then over to 7.

[Mike Hendren]

Not the best, but perhaps my favorite:



Bogey

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I've mentioned this in another post, but Ozarks National in Branson is really good.


The Ozark Mountains, at about 1500 ft/elevation, may not be mountainous enough compared to others, but it and Lookout Mountain are the 2 best elevated course experiences I've had. Have not played Wade Hampton, Roaring Gap or some of the other top 100ish North Carolina courses though

[David Davis]

Wade Hampton, Gozzer and Roaring Gap are probably the best three I have played.


I'm unfortunately missing Stone Eagle, Banff and Jasper still.


Definitely, depends on your definition.


They usually have steep, sloping sides and sharp or rounded ridges, and a high point, called a peak or summit. Most geologists classify a [/color]mountain[/color] as a landform that rises at least 1,000 feet (300 meters) or more above its surrounding area. A [/color]mountain[/color] range is a series or chain of [/color]mountains[/color] that are close together.

[Ira Fishman]

One of the reasons I think so highly (no pun intended) of Primland is that it is unique in my experience in that it plays on top of the Blue Ridge range when most mountain courses play along the sides and/or valleys. It is really a pain to which to travel, but is worth the effort if you are not on a one and done trip. My wife and I have been several times and enjoyed it even on a day or two where we could not play because of the fog.


Ira

[Bart Bradley]

Not the best, but perhaps my favorite:



Bogey

I was waiting on someone else to post one of the correct answers. 😉

[Jeff Schley]

The Himalayas at TOC??

[Jim Hoak]

I see people tossing out a lot of courses they think are pretty good, but no one has answered the question--Can any course classified as a mountain course be really great?  Can any of them be a Doak 8, 9 or (God forbid) a 10?  Can any of them even qualify as a 7?  I suspect that we are dealing with courses that are at their best just pretty good.  I think that is probably the fate of any course with a huge elevation change required in the design.  Pretty to look at, but architecturally and strategically lacking.

[Tim Leahy]

The Plantation Course at Kapalua or Clear Creek.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I see people tossing out a lot of courses they think are pretty good, but no one has answered the question--Can any course classified as a mountain course be really great?  Can any of them be a Doak 8, 9 or (God forbid) a 10?  Can any of them even qualify as a 7?  I suspect that we are dealing with courses that are at their best just pretty good.  I think that is probably the fate of any course with a huge elevation change required in the design.  Pretty to look at, but architecturally and strategically lacking.

Good question.  My experience has been that is every mountain course (even the good ones) ends up with some crappy holes somewhere along the line.  It seems to be inevitable that a gimmicky, goofy hole has to go in here or there to fit the thing together.  Or you end up with a series of holes that end up being an uphill slog, or a series of holes in a row with a pronounced left to right or right to left slope.  So can the course be truly great?  I think the peak (haha! punny!) Doak score for a true mountain course would be 7 or 8 max.  I think if you end up with 14 good to great holes you have done very well indeed on a mountainous site.


I think you could have a Doak 10 in the mountains, but it would be most likely following a river basin and be rather flat overall.

[Craig Sweet]

It's difficult to find a better "mountain course" than Rock Creek....it truly is on a mountain.   The Stock Farm isn't a mountain course, but it sure has pretty views of the Bitterroot Mountains!


BTW...I played Old Works on Sunday. The course was playing real nice.  A new agreement with ARCO is being voted on tonight. If the County doesn't accept it I think Old Works will be done.

[Jim Nugent]

I see people tossing out a lot of courses they think are pretty good, but no one has answered the question--Can any course classified as a mountain course be really great?  Can any of them be a Doak 8, 9 or (God forbid) a 10?  Can any of them even qualify as a 7?  I suspect that we are dealing with courses that are at their best just pretty good.  I think that is probably the fate of any course with a huge elevation change required in the design.  Pretty to look at, but architecturally and strategically lacking.

Ran, for one, says Rock Creek is as good as the game (i.e. golf) has to offer.  Hard to imagine that's any less than a Doak 9, and could easily be higher. 

[Tom_Doak]

I see people tossing out a lot of courses they think are pretty good, but no one has answered the question--Can any course classified as a mountain course be really great?  Can any of them be a Doak 8, 9 or (God forbid) a 10?  Can any of them even qualify as a 7?  I suspect that we are dealing with courses that are at their best just pretty good.  I think that is probably the fate of any course with a huge elevation change required in the design.  Pretty to look at, but architecturally and strategically lacking.

Ran, for one, says Rock Creek is as good as the game (i.e. golf) has to offer.  Hard to imagine that's any less than a Doak 9, and could easily be higher.

Confidential Guide ratings for some of the courses discussed:


9 9 - 7     Rock Creek

8 8 8 7     Banff
8 8 7 7     Jasper Park
7 8 7 7     Capilano
7 8 7 7    Wade Hampton
8 - - -      Sand Hollow
8 7 - -     Glens Falls  -  though I would not have thought of it a mountain course
- 8 - 6     Clear Creek Tahoe

- 7 6 7     Gozzer Ranch
7 7 - 6     Roaring Gap
7 6 - 7     Ekwanok
7 6 7 6    Cascades
7 - - 6      Forest Highlands (Canyons)
7 - - -      Pikewood National
6 7 6 -     Black Mesa


6 6 6 -     Highlands CC, NC
5 - - -      Northeast Harbor  - I may have underrated this to avoid calling attention to it


I look at the numbers here, and I do think they are underrated as a group.  All of those first seven courses have the right stuff for a top-100 list, but even Banff and Jasper have been consistently shunned.  It's possible that conditioning has something to do with it . . . the mountain climate is very unpredictable, and elk leave big footprints in greens!

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