Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...

[Jason Thurman]

I've been traveling and a little behind. A few thoughts:


* John Kirk says it well. And we should note that staff at the club mentioned 12 (along with 6 and the 8th) as one of the holes most frequently cited as a favorite by the membership.


* It's easy to just say "Trees bad!" and forget the why. Too many of them hamper turf and recovery options, block views, and choke out stunning specimens with a bunch of little brothers. 12 at Prairie Dunes has great turf, beautiful views, and stunning specimen trees in full view. And I saw excellent recovery shots played around them, and also felt the pain of rejection on poor strikes from Position A. Sounds like great golf to me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn’t it enough for those who don’t own their swings that the USGA instituted the charitable drop rule after a lost ball? You may not find your ball in the gunch at Prairie Dunes but you will find three others.

Maybe.  Some places you'd have a hard time finding a basketball.  You may find a ball if you accidentally step on it.


As for the drop, I was confused during the Mashie.  If someone hit it in the gunch, people kept saying "lateral" and then would drop up near where the ball likely finished.  It was never clear to me whether the rule was "Go to where the ball finished and drop laterally", which would make sense for pace of play, or "play it as a lateral", which is a MUCH different interpretation of the rule.

This group plays the gunch at Sand Hills as a lateral. I really don’t know why anyone cares about phantom scores on make believe rounds.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rather than derail this thread the thread below outlines the tragedy that playing gunch as a lateral can be:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,15058.0.html

[John Kavanaugh]

The 13th was the first hole I birdied at PD. The back left punch bowl quadrant is often poorly copied at lesser clubs.

[Jason Thurman]

13 seems like the most disorienting drive on a course with very tricky driving lines - The line here really seems like it varies a lot with wind, tee, and quality of strike. Between that and the fabulous uphill approach to a fabulous green, I don’t know what 6 has that this hole doesn’t. Maybe better mowing lines?

[John Kavanaugh]

6 allows us the luxury of teeing from the highest point on the course. There is a natural exhilaration commonly associated with the mount that is rarely duplicated once in the valley.

[David Kelly]

Back when the blue tee was where the gold tee is now on #13 there was nothing like walking all the way back there and then turning around to encounter a freight train of a wind right in your face.  The big bunker on the left side of the fairway was sometimes unreachable for me.

[Terry Lavin]

I played PD the past two days and enjoyed it thoroughly, as usual.  They're building a few, new back tees that I'll surely wave at on future trips, but won't likely play.  Dave Axland is doing the work and it will be dramatic for those who choose to bite off that much, mine would wind up in the gunch.


As for this thread, I could make the case that just about every, single hole at PD is great.  Some are off-the-hook great (like 5,8,10,11,17) and almost all of the rest are exceptional.  I'm not that big a fan of 12 because of the cottonwood goalpost entrance to the green site, but agree that there's nothing wrong with having a hole that fairly commands a very accurate tee shot.  My recollection was that I didn't much care for 14, but my opinion changed this time around.  I think it is a terrific short par 4 with some fun risk reward aspects off the tee.


But overall, the vibe of this place is absolutely phenomenal.  The service is great, the members are genial and it's hard to walk around the course or the clubhouse without a smile on your face.  To have this kind of experience "in the middle of nowhere" only adds to the experience, IMHO.  So PD may not be Personal Top Ten or Top 25 for everybody, but it's certainly up there for me.

[corey miller]

I know that not everyone like the Ran Morrissett hole by hole match play analysis but Prairie Dunes matches up very well with more than a few clubs that are more well received.   

[Morgan Clawson]

The Cottonwoods on 12 frame the hole beautifully from the tee.  But, after observing play over 4 rounds, I think that tree closest to the fairway on the right has too much impact on play.  Given the bunkers down the left and the angle of the tee shot, most players had 2nd shots from the right side of the fairway or rough.  That tree blocks many shots from the right side.

[Terry Lavin]

The Cottonwoods on 12 frame the hole beautifully from the tee.  But, after observing play over 4 rounds, I think that tree closest to the fairway on the right has too much impact on play.  Given the bunkers down the left and the angle of the tee shot, most players had 2nd shots from the right side of the fairway or rough.  That tree blocks many shots from the right side.

I know where you're coming from, but "framing" through the use of trees, is anathema to me.  It's one of the biggest issues one faces when trying to have conversations with your fellow private club members about tree removal/management issues.  Methinks that 12 would be a great hole without any of the trees that now serve to "frame" the hole, but I'd love to hear what our architect commentators think about this issue. 

[Jason Thurman]

As Terry notes, 14 is perhaps my favorite tee shot on the course. Playing the blues with a strong headwind, I hit a good drive and a 6 iron approach. From the whites with a calmer wind, the line was 60+ yards to the left and the approach was a flip lob wedge. Does any hole on the course play as differently when wind and tee varies?

[Morgan Clawson]

Regarding the 12th, it's interesting that Perry planned on this hole being a dog leg left rather than a slight dog leg right.


This old newspaper article shows the 12th at the top of the page.  Thanks to Maxwell enthusiast and architect Colton Craig for this.



So, the tee would have been behind the dune that's just beyond the green, rather than on top of the large dune on the right.

[Morgan Clawson]

I'm a huge fan of the 13th.  From the tee you can see just the top of the flag floating above the tall grass.  The fairway sits between 2 dune ridges and works its way up a gradual hill.  And of course, the green has a lot of interesting movement.


13th tee.



Vaughn Halyard approaching the 13th green.



The 13th green and state flower.

[PCCraig]

Morgan,


Thanks for the pictures.


Yes, the 13th is a really terrific hole.

[Terry Lavin]

This argument goes down the Chute soon...

[Jason Thurman]

15 is probably the worst hole on the course, except the trees around the tee give it some serious genius loci. And the green is excellent.


16 is a huge par 4 at a crucial moment in the round with some serious shot requirements for anybody trying to make something happen. And another world-class green. Where do the greens at Prairie Dunes rank as a set? Do they have a place in the GOAT discussion?

[Morgan Clawson]

The 14th hole.  Interesting hole with many options off the tee.

[Morgan Clawson]

This argument goes down the Chute soon...

And here it is.  From the tee on the par 3 15th.

[Kalen Braley]

I know it probably looks worse cause its a picture, but that is whack!


P.S. I guess the saving grace is it doesn't look bad from the next tee up, and maybe they figure anyone playing those back tees should have a decent command of thier ball flight anyways...

This argument goes down the Chute soon...

And here it is.  From the tee on the par 3 15th.

[Brian Finn]

Where do the greens at Prairie Dunes rank as a set? Do they have a place in the GOAT discussion?

Do they have a place in the discussion?  Without a doubt.

[David Kelly]

Regarding the 12th, it's interesting that Perry planned on this hole being a dog leg left rather than a slight dog leg right.


This old newspaper article shows the 12th at the top of the page.  Thanks to Maxwell enthusiast and architect Colton Craig for this.

So, the tee would have been behind the dune that's just beyond the green, rather than on top of the large dune on the right.




That's how the hole originally played. The original tee is now the ladies tee and I think they actually played from that tee at least once during the Senior Open.   The big hill with the 37 steps in back came later. Well, the hill didn't but the tee boxes did.

[Sean Leary]

On 15, the trees are really only in play if the tees are towards the back of the back tee box.  But a couple could easily be taken out.

[PCCraig]

The trees aren't that much in play off the tee, in my opinion. They give the hole some character for sure.

[Jason Thurman]

I've seen a 5 handicap bounce a tee shot off one of the trees around the tee on 15. They're not quite as intimidating as they look in photos, but they're pretty damn in-play for trees surrounding a par 3 tee box.


We've had earlier posts in this thread that discussed the merits of both 17 and 18. I think the argument can be made for 17 as an elite hole just on the basis of its incredible fallaway green, and 18 provides another all-world green complex in a fantastic setting for closing a match.


I'm not sure I've ever played another course that was as strong hole-for-hole as Prairie Dunes. Its best holes fall a little short of the best at Pebble Beach or Teeth of the Dog, but not by a margin that it fails to make up with its "weaker" holes. And compared to other courses I've seen that line up one brilliant hole after another, the average hole at Prairie Dunes is more memorable. There's not a weak moment on the course. I believe 16 is my least favorite hole, and it's just an unequivocally excellent par 4.


The place might be a bushhog away from being the greatest course I've ever played. And yet, I don't think I'd want it bushhogged. It raises a lot of questions for me about how important it really is for a course to be accommodating to all levels of player, and even how important it is for a course to be as conventionally great as possible. To compare it to another icon of the Great Plains, Russell Westbrook would probably have been a better player if he had a reliable jump shot and just a touch of patience. But I don't think I'd love watching him play nearly as much, even if I would have found him less frustrating. But then again, I don't want my favorite team to trade for him.


Prairie Dunes would probably be even more highly esteemed among this crowd with thinner gunch and wider mowing lines. And I'd have found it less frustrating, but I also don't know if it would maintain such a strong sense of identity. And maybe I wouldn't love it as much as a result, even if I'd be better able to picture myself playing there every day. I don't know. It's a paradigm breaker for me.