Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...

[Brian Finn]

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.

Are you sure you are talking about the same course as everyone else on this thread?

[PCCraig]

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.

Power lines?

[JWinick]

When I played there 7 years ago, they were all over the back nine.   Maybe they’ve redone them. 

[PCCraig]

I gotta say... of every hole I’ve played that I’ve been sure is exceptional, 8 at Prairie Dunes might be the hardest to articulate.

I'm not saying it's a bad hole by any stretch. In fact I think the green is incredible. But through the entire Mashie weekend and now on this thread everyone immediately points to the 8th as the best hole on the course but never articulates why they think its so great. To me, it seems like it showed up on some Golf Digest list of great holes 50 years ago based on how hard it is and everyone is preprogrammed to think they have to say its a *great* hole?

[JWinick]

It’s a great golf course.   But, when people say “if it was on Long Island, you wouldn’t have heard of Shinnecock” that’s crazy talk.   It’s overrated certainly but still a great golf course.   

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.

Are you sure you are talking about the same course as everyone else on this thread?

[corey miller]

Yes...no courses on Long Island are over-rated. 


#8 has an "incredible" green which is half the battle and a undulated fairway (which unlike many with great undulation, all shots do not end up in the same place) where placement off the tee is paramount because it much influences angle on second shot which can have great variations in distance (based on tee ball) and sight all in a very windy area.


And I thought #9 was the under-rated hole on the course.

[JWinick]

So it should be top 25 in the world?   It’s not even in my top 50.

[JWinick]

Found one online....   I seem to recall it being on a lot of the holes.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwik6dueho3lAhXcFTQIHYrPBBQQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teetimes.info%2Fprairie-dunes-country-club-hutchinson-kansas%2F&psig=AOvVaw0wYalUl2SOuuxE8UA7oN1Y&ust=1570637355587984

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.

Power lines?

[John Mayhugh]

When I played there 7 years ago, they were all over the back nine.   Maybe they’ve redone them.

I believe you have Prairie Dunes confused with another course.

I first played there in 2008. There were no power lines crossing the course then, and they didn't add any in subsequent years. There are power lines around the outside of the property (visible to the right of 5 and 6 and well behind and right of 12), as well as part of the way up the entrance drive, but they are not part of the course. The example photo you just linked to is of the right side of hole 6 (30-40 yards right of the fairway). That hole parallels the highway and the power lines follow the highway. I've never actually noticed them before. The power lines would be behind you when you hit from 7 tee.

It's fascinating the things that matter to some people and not others. I can understand why someone would downgrade Prairie Dunes due to the severity of the gunch, but we all have our own preferences. For me, top 50 in the world is conceivable if you assume the US has 1/3 of the top 50 courses.

You must really not like Valhalla! 

[JWinick]

John,


I'm not confused - there are power lines as you have pointed out.   Whether they are part of the course or not is not really relevant, its just a pet peeve of mine.    When you are talking about great golf courses, we are all splitting hairs.   I had three main issues with it when I played it.    I should have mentioned the gunch, but I don't recall it being that unplayable when I played it.   


That doesn't mean it isn't a great golf course.  I'm just not as over the moon as others on this site.   I think there is a lot of group think in the course rating community and many people base their opinions on what they think they should say, not what they actually think.   I have had several people come up to me (including a few on this site!) that agree with my assessment but are afraid to say it.   


Having said that, I think I generally agree with the consensus on this site about what is good and not good.    With respect to Valhalla, its an amazing property that Nicklaus went overboard on.   I tend to be pretty harsh on courses like that because I can really see the potential.


Let's play again soon!


Best,
Jon

[John Mayhugh]

Jon,
You said that there were power lines "all over the back nine," hence my confusion. And that of others. The reality is that there are two holes where lines are on the periphery of the property and one other where lines are visible far off in the distance. That's what I was trying to clear up.  Clearly they are a huge pet peeve of yours to have that as an observation that you remembered years later. Until your comment, I had never noticed any at all. I tend to not care so much about what's not part of the course, other than being a sucker for an ocean view.


I really don't understand if people are unwilling to say what they think. On this thread in particular, many people have seen the course for the first time and formed a very good impression. Rather than attribute their liking the course to group think, I believe that what they experienced suited their own tastes. It's healthy for the site if there is disagreement.

[Brian Finn]

It’s a great golf course.   But, when people say “if it was on Long Island, you wouldn’t have heard of Shinnecock” that’s crazy talk.   It’s overrated certainly but still a great golf course.   

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.

Are you sure you are talking about the same course as everyone else on this thread?

Has anyone ever actually said that? 

I've got 20+ rounds at Prairie Dunes over the last 6 or so years, and I never once noticed a power line. 

The one thing you mention that I think at least warrants discussion (not that I agree with it) is a certain sameness among the par 3s.  That, at least, is something about which we can have a real debate.

[JWinick]

Brian,


My opinion is based on one round and I'm always willing to change my mind.   Having said that, it is not an easy place to get to, although I'm sure I will see it again in the next year as I have a client in Wichita.   


I"m just responding to the hype as I don't believe it merits top-25 in the world.   I think the back nine was not as strong as the front nine, and perhaps that's because of his son doing the work.   I thought the par-3s were somewhat repetitive as I remember having the same club on at least 3 of them.   Yes, I have had a few people tell me that it was better than Shinnecock.


Best,
Jon

[JWinick]

Again, I was right they were there but I probably overstated my case.   

Jon,
You said that there were power lines "all over the back nine," hence my confusion. And that of others. The reality is that there are two holes where lines are on the periphery of the property and one other where lines are visible far off in the distance. That's what I was trying to clear up.  Clearly they are a huge pet peeve of yours to have that as an observation that you remembered years later. Until your comment, I had never noticed any at all. I tend to not care so much about what's not part of the course, other than being a sucker for an ocean view.


I really don't understand if people are unwilling to say what they think. On this thread in particular, many people have seen the course for the first time and formed a very good impression. Rather than attribute their liking the course to group think, I believe that what they experienced suited their own tastes. It's healthy for the site if there is disagreement.

[John Mayhugh]

I missed that observation about the par 3s. It's possible that Jon got a different setup than I've had.

Scorecard yardage from the blues:
2 - 164
4 - 168
10 - 185
15 - 200

2 & 4 seem a bit same, but 4 is also uphill, so plays at least a club longer for me. I think the other yardages show a definite gap, though 15 often is moved up more to 170/180 range. It's not inconceivable that someone could see the course set up playing within a club or so for all of the par 3s.


But the greens are so different from each other, distance is where any possibility of sameness ends for me.

If I were to criticize the par 3s, I do think one shorter one would be fun - especially with those greens. That shot to 2 would still be terrific if the hole was 110-120.

Perry designed 6 of the front 9 holes and 3 of the back.

[Brian Finn]

Brian,
 I think the back nine was not as strong as the front nine, and perhaps that's because of his son doing the work. 

Regarding this, it is worth mentioning that the original 9 holes (Perry) are 1,2,6,7,8,9,10,17,18.  So, that "weak" finish you mention, which includes one of the best par 5s in the world and a devilishly challenging (and interesting) finisher was done by Dad.

[John Mayhugh]

Brian,
To be fair, Jon never described the finish as "weak." Did he? He said that the back 9 was "not as strong as the front nine." That's not the same thing as saying the finish is "weak."

The 17th may be my favorite hole on the course, but I would agree that overall the back is not as strong as the front. Do you think it's as good?

[Brian Finn]

Brian,
To be fair, Jon never described the finish as "weak." Did he? He said that the back 9 was "not as strong as the front nine." That's not the same thing as saying the finish is "weak."

The 17th may be my favorite hole on the course, but I would agree that overall the back is not as strong as the front. Do you think it's as good?

My mistake.  He said it was a bit of a letdown.  Not the same as weak. 

I think the front 9 is stronger, for sure.  My two least favorite holes on the course are 15 & 16, so that puts it a bit behind right away.  Plus, I think the sequencing and flow of the front is a bit better.   

[JWinick]

I fully concede that I am nitpicking.   But, when you're ranked in the top-25 in the world, then that's really all you can do to compare them.    Again, it's very, very good.   But, it's not in my personal top-25 and I've played about half of the top 100 courses in the US and the World.   I quite frankly don't think it's in the same company as the courses its ranked as high as (i.e. Crystal, Fisher's, etc.)

[BHoover]

Brian,
To be fair, Jon never described the finish as "weak." Did he? He said that the back 9 was "not as strong as the front nine." That's not the same thing as saying the finish is "weak."

The 17th may be my favorite hole on the course, but I would agree that overall the back is not as strong as the front. Do you think it's as good?

My mistake.  He said it was a bit of a letdown.  Not the same as weak. 

I think the front 9 is stronger, for sure.  My two least favorite holes on the course are 15 & 16, so that puts it a bit behind right away.  Plus, I think the sequencing and flow of the front is a bit better.   

[JWinick]

Nice catty response.   

[BHoover]

Nice catty response.   

😺

[Brian Finn]

And I thought #9 was the under-rated hole on the course.

I'm very interested to hear what everyone has to say about 9.

[Tyler Kearns]

I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole.

I think an argument can be made about the repetitive nature of the uphill par 3's at Prairie Dunes.  All four climb to varying degrees, but do require different clubs.  If I recall correctly from my last round at the Mashie, from the blue tees with a good south wind (30km/h), I hit 6 iron into 2 (punched under the wind), 8 iron on 4, PW on 10 and 4 iron on 15 - seems like a pretty good spread to me.


Tyler

[JWinick]

I guess it depends on the wind direction.    But, i do recall hitting the same club on three of the par 3s.