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Kalen Braley

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #100 on: October 08, 2019, 05:17:13 PM »
Jwin,

I guess you could criticize any course in the world being that nitpicky

For example Cypress Point:
- Tee ball over the road on opening hole.
- Driving Range in play on #1 and finding range balls in the fairway
- Housing on several holes, and very visible on #2
- All par 5s appear in first 10 holes
- Back to back par 3s late in the round
- Trees blocking most of the fairway approach on 17
- Out of character narrow hole at 18.

I guess you can't put CPC in the top 25 either.  ::) ::)

Terry Lavin

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #101 on: October 08, 2019, 05:17:43 PM »
I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole.


I think an argument can be made about the repetitive nature of the uphill par 3's at Prairie Dunes.  All four climb to varying degrees, but do require different clubs.  If I recall correctly from my last round at the Mashie, from the blue tees with a good south wind (30km/h), I hit 6 iron into 2 (punched under the wind), 8 iron on 4, PW on 10 and 4 iron on 15 - seems like a pretty good spread to me.


Tyler


This is similar to the slight directed at three of the par 3 holes at Medinah #3, all of which involve a shot across Lake Kadijah.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JWinick

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #102 on: October 08, 2019, 05:25:17 PM »

I haven't played it.    But, Royal County Down (for example) is in my top 3 and I can give you 3-4 things that meet the below category.    My point is that you have to be nitpicky to separate the very best courses from each other.   

Jwin,

I guess you could criticize any course in the world being that nitpicky

For example Cypress Point:
- Tee ball over the road on opening hole.
- Driving Range in play on #1 and finding range balls in the fairway
- Housing on several holes, and very visible on #2
- All par 5s appear in first 10 holes
- Back to back par 3s late in the round
- Trees blocking most of the fairway approach on 17
- Out of character narrow hole at 18.

I guess you can't put CPC in the top 25 either.  ::) ::)

Scott Warren

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2019, 05:36:39 PM »
Jon,


More importantly, how was the Fairfield Inn & Suites?

JWinick

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #104 on: October 08, 2019, 05:46:05 PM »

I'm now "lifetime titanium elite" so there.

Jon,


More importantly, how was the Fairfield Inn & Suites?

Jake Marvin

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #105 on: October 08, 2019, 06:32:05 PM »
I, for one, thought nine was a solid hole, but not necessarily a great one. Perhaps a little bit of a letdown given the three or four holes before it. The drive looks relatively straightforward in a picture, but not when one feels the wind coming hard from the right. I thought the green and surrounds were clever in that by perching the gunch up against the right side, one is tempted to leave the shot further left than he should, resulting in an undesirable chip from a tight lie. The wind also forces the golfer to either fade the approach in or hang it over the prairie grass and let it come back - no doubt an uncomfortable choice.


Maybe it is great though - I'll leave that to someone who played this hole from the fairway.


(also: hoping this thread can get back on track. There are plenty of other threads for picking fights over course rankings and nitpicking over hardly-architectural qualities. This one was doing a great job of helping me and others to better consider the beautiful architecture of a course we recently experienced and I'd like to return to that.)

Jason Thurman

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #106 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:46 PM »
Jason,


You aim your driver to the left side of the fairway.


This made me feel so smart. I liked the left side because there’s a plateau over there where a (rare) good drive of mine would finish. And of course, the prevailing wind means that a drive aimed left has a pretty decent buffer of safety for avoiding the gunch.


I do love holes without a clear Position A and “strategy”. 8 fits that bill. My Position A is my plateau on the left, but other players will target another spot based on their own game. I like a hole without a correct answer.


I’m not sure 9 has right answers either. It feels like a companion hole with 8 in some ways. Opposite wind direction and elevation change on the tee, still big but noticeably smaller, a grade-level green (but still with obscene contouring). A hamburger is one of the world’s great sandwiches, but it’s not the same without fries. And you can pair any great sandwich with fries, but a burger paired with another great side dish just isn’t the same. Trust me. I had a burger with excellent sweet potato casserole on Saturday. It would’ve been better with fries.


9 could follow any great hole on earth and hold its own. 8 wouldn’t be the same if it was followed by just any hole. Doesn’t that make 9 the best hole at Prairie Dunes?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Kelly

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2019, 03:04:12 PM »
One of the underrated aspects of #8 and #9 is the caprice of the fairway rolls.  Player A can find his tee ball 25 yards shorter than he expected because it landed on the up-slope of one of those rolls while player B gets a 25 yard turbo boost because he landed on a down-slope.



"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2019, 08:36:32 PM »
David, what's your preferred side on each hole? John, Ryan, do you have a target position? I find this to be a very difficult and very subtle driving course.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

David Kelly

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2019, 03:55:08 PM »
David, what's your preferred side on each hole? John, Ryan, do you have a target position? I find this to be a very difficult and very subtle driving course.
On 9 I just try to hit it as straight as possible but on 8 I would definitely want to be left off the tee.  Your only chance at seeing the green is to be on the left side.  When I first started playing there I could occasionally get my tee shot to the top of the hill on 8 but those days are long gone.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2019, 04:04:10 PM »
David, what's your preferred side on each hole? John, Ryan, do you have a target position? I find this to be a very difficult and very subtle driving course.


Jason,


Unlike David I like to cheat to the right side on #8. Usually cant see the green but it cuts off a lot of distance for me. Wind is usually coming off the left so I aim down the center and hope it carries to the right fairway or rough.


On 9 I do just the opposite, aim to the right and let the wind bring it back center. Then aim right of the green and hope it holds

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2019, 09:24:13 PM »
One of the underrated aspects of #8 and #9 is the caprice of the fairway rolls.  Player A can find his tee ball 25 yards shorter than he expected because it landed on the up-slope of one of those rolls while player B gets a 25 yard turbo boost because he landed on a down-slope.


Something I noticed as well during our Mashie rounds, two players of relatively equal tee shot length being miles apart after solid contact.


Tyler

Jason Thurman

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #112 on: October 11, 2019, 11:39:48 PM »
Can anyone explain 10? I've heard Perry was very proud of it. I feel like I barely understand it. It's certainly one of the great tees in golf.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

PCCraig

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2019, 11:13:30 PM »
I think 10 was my favorite of the par 3s by quite a bit.


Yes - the tee location is terrific right next to the clubhouse.


But after two par 3s that play somewhat similar to shallow greens, the 10th plays to one that has some depth, which is helpful on a hole that plays uphill and downwind.


Unlike the 2nd and 4th it’s a bit of a reprieve in that it’s short iron down wind.


It also helps that the hole is fantastically pretty as it sits right in the dunes.


Love the 10th!!
H.P.S.

V_Halyard

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2019, 07:54:58 AM »
It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.
Depending on Tees, perhaps Par 3s of #2 and #4 can be clubbed similarly with different outcomes.  maybe. Re the power lines? (found none of consequence). Weak/disappointing finishing hole? (again nothing like the gauntlet at PD IMO, watched  life snatched from skins and matches on 18 ) Not sure where you played.
Curious, did you see a dog named Toto as I’m wondering if you weren’t in different Kansas than the one we are speaking of here.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:17:08 AM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2019, 10:42:24 AM »
The charming 10th.






Morgan Clawson

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #116 on: October 15, 2019, 08:12:33 PM »
Pat -
Per your question regarding the 8th.
I think the hole is great for the following reasons:
1)  The visual appeal of the hole is outstanding.  As a first time visitor I looked up the hill and wondered to myself, "Is that the green for this hole?  It seems so far away."  From the tee, the look of that green benched into the hill with the flag blowing wildly is just terrific.
2)  The hole is probably more intriguing for shorter hitters as it basically plays as a par 5 for them.  With the wind blowing hard left to right the first task is to hit the ball solidly so it holds up in the wind and stays in the fairway.  The 2nd shot is blind over the corner of the dogleg.  The 3rd shot is uphill to a blind green.  For the longer hitter, a long approach shot to the green must be very accurate.
3)  The player has options for all 3 shots.  1) How close to the inside of the dogleg do you want to play the tee ball?  What's the correct angle and club selection to carry the inside of the dogleg and land in the fairway?  What type of shot for the approach?
4)  The green is awesome with lots of swales and movement and a false right side.
5)  The hole is all uphill which gives it a dramatic journey feeling.

Scott Warren

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #117 on: October 16, 2019, 12:16:39 AM »
Thanks for the pics of the 10th, Morgan.


Certainly, I think the course is hard enough without having giant lomandra (do you call them that in the US?) sitting on the bunker lips!

JWinick

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #118 on: October 16, 2019, 05:53:06 AM »



Yes, I must have played the wrong golf course if I don't think Prairie dunes is the greatest golf course in the world with no flaws.   When did people in this site become so sensitive to criticism?

It’s a great golf course - but it is not top 50 in the world - that’s crazy talk.   I found the par 3s to feature the same club on every hole, the power lines were an eyesore, and the finish was a bit of a let down.    I’m sure I’m in the minority though.
Depending on Tees, perhaps Par 3s of #2 and #4 can be clubbed similarly with different outcomes.  maybe. Re the power lines? (found none of consequence). Weak/disappointing finishing hole? (again nothing like the gauntlet at PD IMO, watched  life snatched from skins and matches on 18 ) Not sure where you played.
Curious, did you see a dog named Toto as I’m wondering if you weren’t in different Kansas than the one we are speaking of here.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2019, 11:23:26 AM »
Prairie Dunes is a great golf course.  It has a lot of unique holes.  There are very hard long holes and very demanding short holes.  The green complexes are very challenging and quite surprising at times.  But the most significant surprise about Prairie Dunes is the land itself, which is a rollicking couple hundred acres of amazing dramatic dunes, with dips and sways, great elevation changes and exciting sloping in the fairways.  Surrounding the golf course, the land is pretty much dead flat.  Underneath the golf course is a played-out salt mine which was later used to store Hollywood movies.


How the heck did this part of Kansas have an inland ocean, you might ask.  The answer can be found in an amazing article from the New York Times.  Here's the link: [size=78%]https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/science/dinosaurs-extinction-asteroid.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article[/size]


In the article, we learn that 66 million years ago a gigantic asteroid struck the waters off Mexico near the Yucatan Peninsula, which resulted in an earthquake and a tsunami that propelled ocean water and unimaginable debris northward as far as North Dakota.  It left an area called the Western Interior Seaway that passed through Kansas and Nebraska, among other states, on its way up to North Dakota.  Methinks that this event created the land on which Prairie Dunes and Sand Hills, among other courses are now standing.


Back to the rhetorical muse of this thread, #8 is the best hole on the golf course and one of the best naturally presented holes that I've ever played.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #120 on: October 16, 2019, 11:57:06 AM »
Scott -


Thanks. I was trying to capture the real version of the Prairie Dunes logo with that photo.  I believe it's a Yucca that's flowering.



Sean Ogle

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2019, 12:37:22 PM »
I've really enjoyed reading this thread, as I'll be out there for 3 rounds next week for the first time!


For all of you that have been there, anything specific to keep an eye out for when playing or things I should make sure not to miss?


Thanks for any thoughts!

Jake Marvin

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2019, 01:28:14 PM »
Sean -


The place is full of great holes, but I'd suggest looking out for the distinctions between Perry's and Press' holes. Also the masterful use of the dune on the front nine is something I didn't quite grasp the first time around.


I'd tell you not to miss the gunch, but I'm fairly certain it's impossible to miss  ;)


(Also, no surprise if you've been lurking on this thread having read the latest article on your site. Good work and I hope people take your points.)

Sean Ogle

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #123 on: October 16, 2019, 01:37:03 PM »
Jake,


Thanks so much for the thoughts, these are exactly the kinds of things I was looking for. Had no idea the "Gunch" was a thing, and just did a little more research. Not sure this bodes well for my game, which isn't exactly in stellar shape at the moment ha.


And thanks for the kind words as well!

David Kelly

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Re: Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2019, 02:50:36 PM »

In the photograph of #8 that accompanied Dan Jenkins' Sports Illustrated article on his 18 Greatest Holes, the gunch between #8 and #9 appeared to be at shoetop level.  You only see it like that after one of the controlled burns every few years.


No picture but here is Jenkins' write-up on #8.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Prairie Dunes
Par 4 424 yds



Straight away in the distance, crawling across the horizon, are the sweeping sandhills. To the right and left, twitching in the normal 25 mph wind, are broad, swollen patches of knee-high native grass, festering clumps of yucca plants, plum thickets and sunflowers. This is the outlook from every tee at one of America's most unusual golf courses, Prairie Dunes Country Club, a course whose scenery and shot-making requirements are those of a Scottish links, but whose location—Hutchinson, Kans.—could hardly be farther from the Irish Sea.


As country clubs go, Prairie Dunes is certainly not opulent. The small clubhouse is white frame, the landscaping is, for the most part, Kansas natural and the lawn is spotted and unshaded. As for cuisine, it does exist, but a Hutchinson gourmet would prefer the Town Club for an evening out. Thus the country club is strictly a golf course, but a distinctive one.


This incongruous touch of Scotland on the Kansas plains was founded in 1937 as another golfing lark of the Emerson Carey family, a ruling dynasty in Hutchinson. It was built by Emerson Carey Jr. and his brother, Bill, who succeeded their father as benefactors of the town. Emerson Carey Sr., before his death in the '30s, had provided Hutchinson with four golf courses and a public park. The young Carey brothers hired Golf Architect Perry Maxwell to lay out a different kind of course on the unusual duneland in the area. Maxwell set forth each day with a bag of apples and a thermos to walk the ground, and he kept coming home confused. "There are 118 golf holes out there," he once said. "All I have to do is eliminate 100." Finally, he ran out of time—or apples—and he laid out Prairie Dunes.


By modern championship standards, Maxwell's 6,522-yard course is not long, but its rough more than makes up for any lack of distance. Even the best player has been known to take 15 swings or so trying to disgorge the ball from a yucca plant. The course first came to public attention in 1958, only a year after the second nine holes was completed, when a burly 18-year-old named Jack Nicklaus won the Trans-Mississippi Amateur there. Although he won, Nicklaus did not manage a round below 72, and to this day he still talks about the severity of the course. In 1962, Arnold Palmer and Nicklaus played an exhibition round at Prairie Dunes. They shot 72 and 77, and in the process Nicklaus demonstrated how to take an eight out of the matted rough.
There is also the wind. It can be so severe a factor that a hole which plays with a driver and a wedge on one day may require a driver, a spoon and a wedge the next.


The Prairie Dunes golfer constantly finds himself brooding on a windy hilltop—called a tee box by club members—from which he peers down into a swale of thorny growth. He can see little fairway on which his shot can safely land. Thus every hole becomes a challenge, but none is more challenging than the 8th. It is a long, forced dogleg to the right with no reward whatever for trying to cut across. The fairway rises gradually, bumping its way over four ancient dunes—formations that were apparently caused by the wind that whips into Hutchinson from the Arkansas River Valley. The first dune is 165 yards out from the tee and about six feet high. They get successively higher, the last one rising about 50 feet. A perfect tee shot will carry the first dune and have enough length and fade to clear the second, too. After that, the green, protected by four bunkers on the right and one more on the left, each of which is dotted with yucca plants, can be reached with a solid three-iron. The green itself, well uphill from the fairway, is large and severely contoured, inviting three excellent pin positions and making a long, curling putt a decided possibility.


My drive cleared the first grass-covered dune—called Hockaday's Hill in honor of a club member named Ray Hockaday whose drives always landed there—and the second dune as well. As promised, I had a three-iron to the green, but did not quite make it, glancing off into a right-hand bunker. Fortunately, I was in sand instead of a yucca plant. My trap shot was uneventful and my 20-foot putt woefully offline. I made the next putt from five feet for a hard bogey and leaned, more than satisfied, into the wind blowing over the Kansas sunflowers from an invisible sea.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.