Can you make the argument that every hole at Prairie Dunes...

[Jason Thurman]

... is the best hole at Prairie Dunes? Or at the very least, really awesome?


Let's answer this question, in order. Starting with hole one.


Perry takes us into this wondrous rumbling property with a beacon in the distance lighting the way. My soft millennial ass will never know the thrill of rounding the bend to Ellis Island and seeing Lady Liberty in the distance, so revealing that classy dame of a green is about as good as it'll ever get for me. The prevailing wind makes it an excellent driving hole as you must hug the dune left if you want to shorten the approach. Pull it and you're coming in blind from a horrible angle. I think even The Godfather failed to hit the green from there and had to settle for 20 feet away on the fringe instead. Walking to our tee balls was the last time I really had the upper hand...


Why else is 1 the best hole at Prairie Dunes?

[Jason Thurman]

Note that making the argument for a hole like 1 is contingent on ignoring a hole like 8. But I truly believe every hole there might be great.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jason,


No. 1 is a very good start, persuading the golfer to play at the distant fairway bunker with a little draw to shorten the approach into the green.  Fear of pulling one into the gunsch led many to play more safely, leading to very long approaches due to the sharp nature of the dogleg.  A simple yet effective strategy from the tee.  The green is the first of 18 challenging targets, with a nice Maxwell roll on the left side of the surface than creates three distinct pinneable areas.


I can't tell you it's the best hole on the course, but it is strategically sound and far from a gentle handshake opener.


Tyler

[Terry Lavin]

I can’t make the argument because number 8 is the best hole at PD. There are plenty of great holes out there but 8 is a clear standout.

[PCCraig]

Number 8 is the best hole at PD. There are plenty of great holes out there but 8 is a clear standout.

Why is that, Terry?

[Terry Lavin]

I’ve played PD about ten times and number 8 is always the hole that leaves the most lasting impression. The scale of the hole is heroic. The tee shot is wide open but demanding. The green is nestled into what seems like the highest point on the property. There’s thrill, challenge and natural beauty that is a notch above every other hole out there.


All of Perry’s holes are spectacular and Press did a phenomenal job on his as well, but 8 is the best of the bunch, even without a lot of gunsch!

[Sean Leary]

I think the first green at PD might be the most underrated of the Perry greens.  It’s just amazing.  There is a hole location right in the middle of the green on the ridge that I played only a couple of times in 75 rounds there that is my favorite on the whole course. 


I don’t think an argument can be made for each hole being the best, but there sure are a lot of them.  8 is probably the best (although technology has neutered it a bit) but 6 is my favorite. 

[PCCraig]

Jason,


Great thread.


The first hole is a very tough opener. It certainly tempts you to go left to get closer to the green, but too far left and it’s all blind. With play you realize it’s just an easy draw off the far bunker. The golf course is super disorienting off the tee if you haven’t played the golf course much.


The green is just terrific. Rolling and fun. Certainly not typical of a hole where you are hitting a mid to long iron into the green.

[Jake Marvin]

While I can't make a best-hole-on-the-course case for one, it's definitely among the underrated holes. It's also at the top of my list of exhibits for "Prairie Dunes would still remarkably tough without so much gunch" -- the driving visual is one of the greenest on the course, and there is ample room around the green to miss an approach, but I think I only saw one par there all weekend.


I also found the choice off the tee interesting. I still don't know how much I value the shorter approach shot against the visual of the green. While the blind shot is tough, the option to miss left makes it much more playable although the recovery is far from a simple up-and-down.


Also, awesome thread. Talking through these holes helps me to appreciate them that much more.

[John Kavanaugh]

When you take guests out to PD you most likely have gone on about the greatness of the greens. The 1st hole proves that you weren't lying. When you start throwing superlatives around like the best ever it ain't easy to back up  The 1st may be the best hole on the course because it always has your back.

[Morgan Clawson]

The first hole is a great preview of what's in store for the lucky golfer over the next 4 hours:
1) The best drive position in many cases is to the outside of the dogleg.  On this hole that requires a very long ball.  If you don't have that    it's a very challenging hole, as your second shot will be blind.
2)  The green is slightly raised above grade and has beautifully sculpted and compelling rolls.  My favorite thing about Prairie Dunes is that every pitch or chip or putt needed to be thoughtfully struck in order to navigate the rolls.  I think this would make the course endlessly fun to play as every round would require different shots and paths to the hole. It certainly was for the 3.6 rounds I played.
3)  A visually stunning prairie environment.  WOW!

[MCirba]

When I read the title I thought it was going to say:


"...is surrounded by hazards (aka penalty areas) on all sides?"


Love PD but had same criticism of Muirfield.  If the gunch is impenetrable and balls are unfindable then it may as well be a lake, no?

[Bill Seitz]

When I read the title I thought it was going to say:


"...is surrounded by hazards (aka penalty areas) on all sides?"


Love PD but had same criticism of Muirfield.  If the gunch is impenetrable and balls are unfindable then it may as well be a lake, no?

I really loved the golf course, and it's probably in my top five all time, but I made the same point in the Mashie discussion.  If you took an aerial view of the course and replaced all the native with water, it would get roundly criticized here.  That said, it's not impossible to find your ball in the gunch.  Ross Harmon found mine four times during our match, and it was at least advanceable every time, so it's not quite as bad as water.  And probably more visually appealing.  But it does require a player to decide to either slow play to a crawl, or just give up and take the penalty (tangentially, I never was quite sure what the local rule was there).


I'm not an agronomist, so I'm not sure what, if anything, could be done about it without adding a lot of extra maintenance.  At my home club I'm pretty sure they mow the native down in the late winter/early spring, and it's pretty playable year round (though certainly easier at the beginning of the season.  Not sure if there's something they could plant that would be both dominant and thinner.  And I don't think you'd need to do it everywhere.  For example, we've discussed #s 1 and 8 on this thread.  I'd be in favor of keeping the inside of both holes fairly penal, while thinning the gunch to the left of 8, right of 1, and between 1 and 3.  There's certainly no advantage to blowing the ball the wrong way on either hole such that a player deserves even more punishment.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have always considered a lake to be a one stroke penalty. A lost ball is two.


An elite form a strategy is to form your misses to the lake side when confronted with gunch on the other.

[Jason Thurman]

Let's get on to number 2.


What are the ingredients for a great par 3? A challenging and compelling tee shot? A perfectly sited green? A contoured putting surface that lends interest once the tee ball has landed? Does it need to be beautiful? With the threat of disaster for a misplayed shot?


Whatever the ingredients, I know that this hole has them. Of every par 3 I've ever played, this is the one I'm most certain is truly superb. It's clearly the best hole at Prairie Dunes. Move the cart path and it might be the best hole on Earth.

[Bill Seitz]

It's a great hole, and with the prevailing wind typically hurting, it asks for a crisply hit mid-iron early in the round while the player is still getting warmed up.  It's intimidating to stand on the tee with a club that may be one or two more than you usually hit to that yardage knowing how much trouble you can get into if you hit too much.  Probably my favorite par 3 on the course.  Though also probably my second favorite par 3 second hole that I've played.

[Tyler Kearns]

I really loved the golf course, and it's probably in my top five all time, but I made the same point in the Mashie discussion.  If you took an aerial view of the course and replaced all the native with water, it would get roundly criticized here.  That said, it's not impossible to find your ball in the gunch.  Ross Harmon found mine four times during our match, and it was at least advanceable every time, so it's not quite as bad as water.  And probably more visually appealing.  But it does require a player to decide to either slow play to a crawl, or just give up and take the penalty (tangentially, I never was quite sure what the local rule was there).


I'm not an agronomist, so I'm not sure what, if anything, could be done about it without adding a lot of extra maintenance.  At my home club I'm pretty sure they mow the native down in the late winter/early spring, and it's pretty playable year round (though certainly easier at the beginning of the season.  Not sure if there's something they could plant that would be both dominant and thinner.  And I don't think you'd need to do it everywhere.  For example, we've discussed #s 1 and 8 on this thread.  I'd be in favor of keeping the inside of both holes fairly penal, while thinning the gunch to the left of 8, right of 1, and between 1 and 3.  There's certainly no advantage to blowing the ball the wrong way on either hole such that a player deserves even more punishment.

Bill,


I know they burn the gunsch in January which helps to thin it out during the early months of golf.  Hard to keep it thin and whispy during wetter years, but I was watching an interview with their superintendent who said they are constantly looking at ways to improve playability of the gunsch.  It certainly does seem a little overdone at Prairie Dunes, beautiful, but devastating from a playability standpoint.  I think a sensible strategy to scale it back in certain spots would go a long way to improving the situation and still maintain the desirable visuals and habitat.


Tyler

[Brad Payne]

I really loved the golf course, and it's probably in my top five all time, but I made the same point in the Mashie discussion.  If you took an aerial view of the course and replaced all the native with water, it would get roundly criticized here.  That said, it's not impossible to find your ball in the gunch.  Ross Harmon found mine four times during our match, and it was at least advanceable every time, so it's not quite as bad as water.  And probably more visually appealing.  But it does require a player to decide to either slow play to a crawl, or just give up and take the penalty (tangentially, I never was quite sure what the local rule was there).


I'm not an agronomist, so I'm not sure what, if anything, could be done about it without adding a lot of extra maintenance.  At my home club I'm pretty sure they mow the native down in the late winter/early spring, and it's pretty playable year round (though certainly easier at the beginning of the season.  Not sure if there's something they could plant that would be both dominant and thinner.  And I don't think you'd need to do it everywhere.  For example, we've discussed #s 1 and 8 on this thread.  I'd be in favor of keeping the inside of both holes fairly penal, while thinning the gunch to the left of 8, right of 1, and between 1 and 3.  There's certainly no advantage to blowing the ball the wrong way on either hole such that a player deserves even more punishment.

Bill,


I know they burn the gunsch in January which helps to thin it out during the early months of golf.  Hard to keep it thin and whispy during wetter years, but I was watching an interview with their superintendent who said they are constantly looking at ways to improve playability of the gunsch.  It certainly does seem a little overdone at Prairie Dunes, beautiful, but devastating from a playability standpoint.  I think a sensible strategy to scale it back in certain spots would go a long way to improving the situation and still maintain the desirable visuals and habitat.


Tyler

Had a similar conversation. Believe there are some issues with over irrigation that keep the gunsch thick right where you don’t want it thick, at the edge of the rough. What’s funny is the further you hit it offline, the more likely it is findable! The one round I played was in a 30 mph wind and think I lost 6-7 balls to the gunsch, but still had a blast as the course is that good!


When do we talk about number 3 being a great short par 4?

[John Kavanaugh]

There is a reason that Prairie Dunes is still at championship test at less that 7,000 yds. If you have a problem with the modern ball and equipment learn how to hit it straight. Quit swinging so damn hard or hit less than driver off the tee. You rarely lose a ball at PD off a good or smart shot.


Honestly I have been playing a couple of uber tight courses for the last 20 years. It takes a couple of years to learn the discipline of the straight ball. So pony up, practice up or shut up. Only a chump would lose 6 or 7 balls each weekend for 20 years and live to talk about it.

[Mark_Fine]

I've always liked The Doak Scale as a simple "high level" way to rate golf courses.  He defines a 10 as a course so good that if you skipped even one hole you probably missed something special.  I've played roughly 20 courses I would give that 10 rating to and on NONE of them would I say that you could argue any hole could be deemed the best.  Not even close.  Prairie Dunes is one of those 10s I have played.  You sure don't want to miss any holes as they are all special in some way but like on every great course there are some clear standouts.   

[John Kavanaugh]

The only hole on the front that I can’t make an argument for as being the best at PD is #4. There is a hole in one pin placement on #2 that makes it for that day the best hole on the course.

[CJames]

As for the notion that the PD gunch is, de facto, a penalty hazard I would disagree.  Anyone who has played with me can readily attest that I am merely an average golfer.  But I also know that it is not necessarily a God-given right to use my driver 14 times, nor that I can presume to hit it as far and high as I might without regard to consequence.  Over time, I have learned to successfully navigate my way around PD in standard-issue Kansas winds without too many balls, and frequently none at all.  That said, yes, when you find the gunch it is indeed penal.   

[Jason Thurman]

Part of the impetus for this thread is the way that discussions of Prairie Dunes, as a whole, devolve to revolve around how 8 is great and the gunch ate your lunch.


While the gunch is an ever-lurking menace, I don’t think it’s excessively close or punishing on any single hole. Let’s keep things focused on the holes themselves in this thread. Prairie Dunes is not the sum of its parts, and that’s what makes the parts so worth examining closely.


This is GCA and 3 is a short 4, so fire up your accolades compadres.

[PCCraig]

The 2nd is a really strong par-3. It's certainly pretty benched into the dune and with that green even a very strong tee shot to a few feet above the hole can result in a having to make a 6 footer for par. Much like #4, you want to give it enough club to get it to the hole on an uphill hole, but long is impossible and a nearly guaranteed bogey.


When we were there I talked about the strength of the par-3's, but a few folks thought that they perhaps weren't a great set as they lacked variety...perhaps the most when comparing #2 and #4 and the fact that each one is uphill. However in a vacuum or on any other golf course in the world #2 would be one of if not the best hole on the course.


The third is an interesting hole. I played it 4 times last weekend and hit everything from a 2-iron to a driver while the hole was playing downwind. It's another hole where your eye is drawn toward the green and you want to hug the junk, but in reality you really don't have to. At least downwind it's all about just getting it in the fairway. The 2nd shot and the green is terrific, and the middle/back pins are fun downwind as if you play the wind incorrectly your ball goes long and doesn't stop rolling for some time. 

[Morgan Clawson]

The 2nd Green taken from near the 6th tee.