The Architecture of Royal Lytham.

[James Boon]

Another quick query on the history and regarding John Kirk's comment below:

I've not played the course and from the aerials on Google Maps it appear to be quite a walk from the 12th green to the 13th tee. Its also at an awkward angle so that you appear to be walking into the line of fire. Was this always the case or was it once a much much shorter par 4 or even back to back par 3s??? And is what we see now just a product of the quest to lengthen the course?

Cheers,

James

[Michael Underwood]

I have played approximately 20 rounds of golf at Royal Lytham since 1990.  I have three wonderful friends that are members at the club.  I have never thought that the green to tee walks were exceptionally long to the members tees.  I think that during the Open Championship some of the walks from green to "Championship" tee looked a little long.  If I am not mistaken the course was lengthened prior to the 2012 Open Championship.

Royal Lytham is a wonderful test of golf that you need to play more than once to fully appreciate!  The walk is very reasonable and pace of play is well under four hours when playing match play.  Like most tournament courses there is much more movement in the fairways and greens than you can see on the television.  The fairways and approaches have constant rolls, dips, and knobs.  The greens also have quite a bit of movement both subtle and not so subtle.  If you get the opportunity Royal Lytham is a must play!

[Jim Eder]

I am with Michael and Andrew on their view that it is a very good golf course. There are a lot of options as many viewers could see via how differently Tiger and Adam played it. 2 Tee shot, 3 approach, 4 to get a view or not and what angle, 6, 8 approach, 10 tee shot and approach, 12 is just a good par 3, 14 tee shot, 15 from tee to green, 16 to go for it or layup, 17 tee to green, 18 tee shot.  These are all very interesting to me. And for the higher handicap there are safer options. But from a Championship point of view it is very, very good. And if you get some wind it gets really interesting. And it can play into the the wind out and into back in (not often but I have seen it). It is just good, solid, fair golf in my opinion. And it tends to produce the greatest champions which in my opinion says something. For me it is a must play.

[Giles Payne]

I played a number of years ago as a four - I was the worst golfer off about 11, two were low single figures. We were put of the yellow tees which was fine, other than the fact that these were actually put out at the front of the ladies tees. It meant that vitually none of the fairway bunkers were in play as we could just go over them. Very frustrating paying top money for a very disappointing experience.

This has obviously tained my view of the course - I remember the greens and thier approaches being interesting but I would rather pay top money for some other courses.

[Ivan Morris]

Apart from the excessive green fee, which I wouldn't dream of paying - I'm surprised that Tony Muldoon is so dismissive of Lytham. When I was in my pomp, I played in the Lytham Trophy several times and also played in the British Amateur there in 1986 and it's high up on my all-time favorites list. I've played all of the Open venues except Muirfield and Hoylake. Lytham sits comfortably in my top 3.  (Birkdale would be my No. 1 and Royal St. George's is at the bottom.) I'd compare Lytham to Carnoustie, not only for difficulty but because of the relatively dull surroundings and absence of sea views. Plotting your way successfully through all of those little humps, hollows and riveted carnage is hugely satisfying. My favorite holes at Lytham are the 8th, 13th (a gorgeous green site) and 18th whereas the 12th gave me fits! When I played the 12th as a short par 4, my chances of making 3 seemed to improve. For me, the tee shot at 15th was the hardest shot. The fairway was always in the wrong place! When Adam Scott negotiated that 15th tee shot perfectly, I thought The Open was his.  In one of my Lytham adventures I 'shot' 43-32 and 31-42. That 'wild-scoring' illustrates Lytham. Stay out of trouble and there are birdies galore, otherwise double bogies and even triples go on the card. I agree with the comment that it isn't so much the difficulty of the green side traps at Lytham but the number of the fairway pits that get you if you aren't razor sharp. If the course was playing faster during the recent Open, Tiger's caution may have worked but the heavy rain slowing down the bounce and roll meant he should have re-jigged and gone 'full bore.' Hell, he might have matched me for those two delicious, back to back 9-holes that unfortunately did not add up to 18.   

[Mark Alexander]

I photographed the course for the club last year. It was certainly challenging to shoot because of the limited high points and lack of scenic/coastal views (the club also didn't want too many surrounding houses showing in the images). As normal, I photographed the course before and after I played it. I was surprised at how tough the course was. It felt as if the course stood poised to strike should you ever fall out of position. If you did, you would undoubtedly find yourself in real trouble. The thick, tangily rough didn’t help with the ever-present threat of sand looming large as soon you felt the grass tug at your club.

It sapped my steely resolve, but I did find some nice angles!

As mentioned earlier, I’m not too sure how well this imminent threat translates on the TV, but the course itself is penal should you fail to hit the fairway.

Here’s a link to my images of the course - http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/RoyalLythamandStAnnes/

[Jim Eder]

Mark,

That is some very impressive photography.  The way you captured it is truly beautiful.  Very well done.

Ivan,

Very impressive that you played in the Lytham Trophy and British Amateur. You are a player no doubt. That 31 and 32 is truly impressive!! 18 tee shot into the wind is truly one of the great tee shots (Ernie's was unbelievable) and I agree with you that 15 tee shot is just tough for some reason (I do draw the ball). 8 second shot, 3rd second shot, 5 depending on wind, 6 tee shot is intimidating (especially in the rarer left to right wind), 10 tee shot, 11 approach with the trees behind gone now, 17.  One can go on and on. One of my rounds a few weeks ago played into the wind on the way out and then it switched and played into the wind on the way back.  Tough. 12 now plays as a 5 or 6 iron from the back tees rather than what the older technology made you hit but it remains a great hole. I agree with you the key is to get by the tougher holes and capitalize on the "easier" holes.  I will say that the course played fairly soft the week after The Open (firmer than during The Open though) so it did play easier than if it played faster.  When it plays fast it is really tough as there are some bumps out there.

[Ivan Morris]

Jim the Elder! You sound like a member. If so, say "Fore!' to Dr. Reid, the author. You are right about No. 15 being a fader's hole but the controlled fade was not a shot I could ever fully rely on. You are right about the 12th - it was usually a 5-fairway wood or 3-iron in 'my' day. I never played it as a 5-iron. I made a typing mistake - my Lytham Trophy score was 43-32; 31-44! As you can imagine the wind switched. I almost drove the 18th. I agree that the 5th green is highly elusive but I remember the 6th as 'unexceptional' unless there was a strong wind off the left. Thinking harder, I had forgotten how much I enjoyed the 9th and 17th. Those WERE the days!     

[Jim Eder]

Ivan,

I wish. A controlled fade is not my shot either. I feel your pain on that tee shot.  Add the prevailing wind in and it is one tough tee shot/hole.  Awesome.

I am still impressed with the Lytham Trophy score. Terrific. The wind does switch, it can be very, very interesting when it does.

6 is a very interesting tee shot at least for me. That bunker short left plays with my mind. It makes the fairway look so narrow. I so want to cut the corner but that is not the play.  Take it at the right bunkers with a little draw (but the prevailing wind wants to take it further left) and if the wind is coming from the right it is tough. In my mind it is a 4 because that is the way they play it at The Open. It was a 5 before. For some silly reason my mind causes me to be a bit of stress when I think of it as a 4.  And I believe par is really irrelevant.  Ughhhh.

You would not believe how far back 10 tee is now.  Into the wind that tee shot is scary.

I just love the place................................

9 is a really fun short hole, interesting little green. 17 is just plain awesome. 

[Ivan Morris]

Great minds think alike!

[Jeff Schley]

Just played here last week and was my favorite of the three rota courses because the fescue was the most playable and the par three holes were pretty special IMO.  17 and 18 are a wonderful finish where you battle to stop leaking oil.  Clubhouse was elegant and classic as well.   I know during the open (if they get another) the course plays very tough but in comparison to Royal Birkdale and Royal Liverpool it played easier for me for my trip certainly.

[Niall C]

I played Lytham quite a lot in the 80s and 90s, often with Tony Nickson, twice past Captain and author of the Lytham centenary book. In those days I was off between 11 and 13 handicap and played to it. I hit a drive 250 yards and a 7 iron 150. From the members' medal tees the course was manageable as long as you didn't hit too many fairway bunkers. Unfortunately there were fairway bunkers at just about every length off the tee, ready to swallow up good players, bad players and all in between.

True, it is a flat course, and yet it isn't. There are all sorts of humps and hollows, little shaved swales off the green, and all sorts of uphill, downhill and sidehill lies on fairways such as the 15th. Royal Zoute reminds me of Lytham in that it is an inland course with no sight of the sea and yet it has all the characteristics of a true links. Both courses are surrounded by housing. But, as I say of Seaton Carew, once you get out on the course you don't notice the surroundings.

Of the English Open courses (and I played them all in the days when I could survive on a golf course) Royal St George's was the most intimidating and Royal Lytham the most unforgiving. I suppose, like most Open courses, Lytham has had its design tweaked every time it has held an Open, and it must be difficult to account for who may have contributed this feature or that.

The greens are not as dull as some of you might make out. Having survived a journey through Hades to get the to the greens you are glad they are not eccentric. Perhaps someone could dig up some putting statistics comparing Lytham with other Open Championship courses. We might then learn how good (or otherwise) these greens are. Remember the criticism of the new greens at Hoylake put in for its last Open? They were criticised for being out of character with the rest of the course for being too interesting! (They are being rebuilt).

Opportunities to play R Lytham as a visitor are expensive and infrequent. If you are paying that sort of money should you not be looking for the positives rather than the negatives? If you own a Ferrari or a Lamborghini it probably has some (or many) shortcomings, but don't you just relish the noise of its engine? Top athletes are rarely perfect. Lytham is a pretty top athlete.

Jeff


Thanks for bumping this thread. I've just read through every post and there is some great comment, particularly Mark's post above. I played it two days in a row a couple of years ago and thought it had some terrific moments. Is it over bunkered ? Well, there are a few holes where it is undoubtedly over bunkered to my way of thinking but if you had a bunker cull on those specific holes (sorry, can't recall which ones) then I don't think the number of bunkers would stick in peoples minds. The quality and difficulty of them would though and I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that, that's just the character of the course. What I recall from my fading memory is that the green complexes were top notch IMO, particularly the par 3's.


Over all I loved it and I was paying full fare. The comparison to Carnoustie is probably most apt as both are unrelenting challenges. Where it sits in the list of Open rota courses I can't say as I haven't played them all but to mind bracketing it with Troon is no put down as it is another fantastic and under appreciated course.


Niall

[MCirba]

Count me among the Lytham Lovers.


Unlike many links courses it is not simply out and back and after the first seven solid holes the course becomes special from 8 on in.


17 may be my favorite hole given how difficult it is to select the proper line.  It reminds me of the equally underrated 13th at TOC.


Run, don't walk if you get a chance.

[Pete Lavallee]

My wife was born in Preston and lived in the nearby village of Freckleton. We did a stay and play just before the course closed for the Walker Cup. Truly a fantastic experience staying in their Dormie House with full English breakfast in the Clubhouse complete with black puddings, golf, cocktails and 3 course dinner with jacket and tie followed by snooker; what more could one want.


I found the golf course to be charming and eminently playable. Fairway bunkers are an automatic dropped shot but green side bunkers are very easy to escape from successfully. You must formulate a strategy to stay out of the fairway bunkers and a good score can be returned.


My wife tempted fate by recognizing she had played 13 holes without going into a single bunker. The Golf Gods got their retribution as she was in 7 on the last 5 holes! I asked a member who was about to tee off if he ever played a round in his 20 years there without going into a bunker, he thought for a moment a quickly responded no!