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Tim Gallant

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Talking about Tie-ins!
« on: September 18, 2019, 04:00:09 AM »
I've heard a few architects mentioning getting the tie-ins right when building a golf course, and to date, I've always guessed (incorrectly!) at what this has meant. Andy Staples had this to say on Twitter:


I seem to refer to the 80/20 rule a lot. The diff between a decent project & a really good one comes down to that last 20% - the design details, the site specific thought, the ground tie ins, seem to be the most difficult to get right.


I asked Andy what he meant by detailing and tie-ins and he responded with this:


  I’m talking about all the things that can change by following the normal process of construction. Irrigation install, making drainage work around bunkers, detailing of the depth of the bunker edge before sod etc all have an incredible impact on the final product


My question to you'll: what makes good ground tie-ins? What are good examples of this, and bad examples? What else should I know about tie-ins during course construction? What are the fundamentals?

Kyle Harris

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2019, 05:27:16 AM »
If you're talking about the tie-ins of a golf course you're either one of the shapers/architects themselves or someone did a bad job it. 
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Sean_A

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2019, 05:58:59 AM »
I think of tie-ins as connecting the work to the surrounds.  As Kyle suggests, it should be seamless.  I do see some odd tie-ins sometimes, but usually its a matter of opinion as to how far out from the focal point of the work should be tied-in.  I mean it can be quite radical if tons of dirt has been moved and there are open views to an adjacent property which causes a failure in suspended belief  8) I don't think most golfers would care about that, but it is an example (albeit extreme imo) of the concept. 

I must say that with certain styles, some tie-in work is much less important or even not desirable.  Obviously, things like drainage, irrigation etc need to be well disguised, but not so much for the playing elements of the design.  I rather like in your face elements which are blatantly not well blended. Walton Heath and Kington (t o name two) have a ton of such earthworks which don't look right, but they are right.  Granted, for a lot of this kind of design, the aging process has made the work easier in the eye.

Tim

The next time you play North Berwick's 12th, check out the right fairway bunker.  The tie-in is awful.  In effect, a ramp leads into the bunker which allows balls to jump the sand.  IMO, the foreground should be far lower to feed into the bunker and be aesthetically more attractive.  From the tee the sand would just blend into the fairway (if the bunker is still in the fairway  8) ).

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« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 06:03:45 AM by Sean_A »
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Kyle Harris

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2019, 06:51:40 AM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2019, 08:25:16 AM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.


Kyle nails it.


Although I do agree with Sean that some deliberately not tied-in work (e.g. cops at Walton Heath) work very well with sharp earthworks. I would counter that age has helped these however.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2019, 08:53:42 AM »
Pinion Hills gets away with multiple mounds due to what's natural in the landscape.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 01:27:24 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ira Fishman

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2019, 09:23:05 AM »
I have been trying to put my finger on why I found that Pinehurst 4 fell short for me.  This thread does the trick.  The greens were quite interesting, but the features on the course appeared a bit awkward, particularly the bunkers and the areas surrounding them.


Ira

Kalen Braley

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2019, 10:46:40 AM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.


Kyle,


Wouldn't this be better described as naturalism?  To get it right the first time, without much dirt moving, is minimalism...but the ensuing fix(es) to appear to the golfer as it was always there seems like naturalism...

Kyle Harris

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2019, 11:15:10 AM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.


Kyle,


Wouldn't this be better described as naturalism?  To get it right the first time, without much dirt moving, is minimalism...but the ensuing fix(es) to appear to the golfer as it was always there seems like naturalism...


Viewing it in that manner is site-dependent. Some sites require more work than others. Minimalism is about building a compellingly natural-looking landscape just as much as doing the least required.

Else true minimalism is reduced to a bunker-less course more often than not. Even one bunker could be considered "unnecessary" to some.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2019, 11:21:13 AM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.


Kyle,


Wouldn't this be better described as naturalism?  To get it right the first time, without much dirt moving, is minimalism...but the ensuing fix(es) to appear to the golfer as it was always there seems like naturalism...

I agree here with Kalen - it was Kyle's second sentence that nailed it. But the first one is a bit debatable and depends on how you define minimalism.

Tom D says he coined the term as it befits golf course architecture. And so I'm sure he would agree with Kyle.

But true minimalism for me is actually doing less, not just making it look like less (naturalism): Eddie Hackett was a true minimalist but - depending on his construction crew - his tie-ins can be fairly awful in places.

Going back to Tim's original point, good tie-ins can mean a far larger area of work than most greens-crews would allow for if conducting in-house rather than under the guidance of a GCA / shaper / builder. Naturalism can be hard work.

But Kyles's first sentence is one to live by, especially the first part of that which hints at the main point: The first question should always be "do we really need to do anything here?"

Kalen Braley

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 12:08:43 PM »
I think Kyle's point on site-dependence is important here.  I've played some golf courses on flat & featureless sites and the golf was nowhere near compelling, despite very much fitting the description of minimalist.

Then on the other side of the spectrum you have a course like Lahinch, which i'm guessing is also fairly minimalist, and what appears to be a wild and far more interesting result.

For the rest of the vast majority of sites somewhere in between, at what point is minimalism not minimalism anymore?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 12:35:39 PM »
My usual glibness aside, the tie-ins are what make minimalism "minimalism."

The minute you need to change something you do everything possible to make it seem like you never changed it in the first place.


Kyle,


Wouldn't this be better described as naturalism?  To get it right the first time, without much dirt moving, is minimalism...but the ensuing fix(es) to appear to the golfer as it was always there seems like naturalism...

I agree here with Kalen - it was Kyle's second sentence that nailed it. But the first one is a bit debatable and depends on how you define minimalism.

Tom D says he coined the term as it befits golf course architecture. And so I'm sure he would agree with Kyle.

But true minimalism for me is actually doing less, not just making it look like less (naturalism): Eddie Hackett was a true minimalist but - depending on his construction crew - his tie-ins can be fairly awful in places.

Going back to Tim's original point, good tie-ins can mean a far larger area of work than most greens-crews would allow for if conducting in-house rather than under the guidance of a GCA / shaper / builder. Naturalism can be hard work.

But Kyles's first sentence is one to live by, especially the first part of that which hints at the main point: The first question should always be "do we really need to do anything here?"


Ally:


First of all, Ron Whitten actually coined the term "minimalism" for golf architecture, attempting to explain what Bill Coore and I were doing differently from other designers, back in about 1995.  Of course, he also included Donald Steel in that discussion, and I thought Donald's work was much more about limiting the area of disturbance [and much less about massaging the natural contours] than ours.


As with all terms related to golf architecture [see:  championship, links, etc.] the word has become more of a sales pitch and different people have totally different understandings of it, and arguing about who's right is fruitless.  We can only explain what we are trying to do, ourselves.




For me, tie-ins are hugely important.


One of the reasons I hate USGA greens construction is because the tie-ins are so hard to get right with the third layer of material . . . it takes a lot of work to make the seam between green and surrounds seamless, and most contractors fall well short of success.


Indeed, on renovations in general, tie-ins are much harder to pull off, because you are ripping up more grass to make the tie-in better, instead of just working further out in the sand/dirt.  There are great sketches in Thomas's and Simpson's books of how a mound should look, which illustrate how much further out you must go to get the tie-in right on a form like that.  On a renovation job, that adds expense . . . on a new course, it really doesn't.


When building a new course, we are thinking about the tie-ins from all angles, everywhere we have to do our work.  Of course, we'll get things right within the area being re-grassed . . . the trick on a new course is to choose the line carefully between the native vegetation you're leaving and the area you will grass and mow, so it doesn't call attention to changes in the terrain.  [Simplest illustration:  if we have to change the slope on the outside edge of a hole, we will work back to the steepest part of the slope, so we can continue it that steeply for a while and re-shape the transition to our new contours.]  But at the same time, you've got to do it in lines that don't look weird or awkward from the golfer's viewpoint.  Sometimes we build a hole much wider than otherwise necessary in order to find a tie-in that works.


But, yes, at the same time, I would prefer not to change the grades in a fairway at all, if they work reasonably well for golf.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 01:15:44 PM »
What are examples of well done tie-ins on newer courses or recent restorations? Examples of not well done tie-ins?


Thanks,


Ira

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 02:17:48 PM »
I think that regardless of definitions, the same principle applies: Do as little as you can to get the best result.


It just so happens that the best results often take a lot more disturbance than is generally acknowledged, particularly in renovations like Tom says.


Whether that’s called minimalism or just naturalism I guess doesn’t matter.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 02:22:16 PM »
Ally:


My preference toward minimalism is really that we are working in three dimensions, and I know that when you change one thing -- say, decide to raise the green by a couple of feet -- you are also changing its relationship to the recovery areas on all sides, often with unintended consequences.


The less I can manage to change things, the fewer of those unintended consequences we have to deal with.


I used to wonder how other architects can visualize massive grading changes and how it will all tie in on completion.  Eventually I decided that most cannot, and just have to deal with the consequences after the work they drew on paper is complete.  So why not just start with the site you were given?  ;) [size=78%]  [/size]

Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2019, 02:31:45 PM »
What are examples of well done tie-ins on newer courses or recent restorations? Examples of not well done tie-ins?

Thanks,

Ira


Ira:


Most of this is little stuff that you won't notice until the poor tie-in affects your chip shot, but it sometimes affects the big stuff dramatically.  I will give one example:  the 7th green at Ballyneal.


I had moved the green site into a long, narrow trough in the dunes, with eight-foot banks of native grass paralleling it on both sides.  But I was struggling with how to build a decent green in that trough because of the native grass. 


If we took out the native on both sides, it would be a silly hole, because any approach shot would roll down onto the green. 


If we left the native, even part-way up the banks, it would seem very arbitrary, and the maintenance and consistency of the native rough [which would be hard to control right next to the greenside irrigation] would have too much influence on the playability.


It took me a long time to sort out that the trick would be to take the short grass up and over one of the banks -- on the left, to make that mowing line go away and let balls be played off the slope -- but leave a bunch of long grass on the right, and dig a bunker into it, so you didn't get any help from the right side. 


So, the design really came entirely from trying to figure out the tie-ins and grassing lines.  Once I figured that out, it only took about an hour to shape one of my most celebrated greens, digging out the bunker and using the sand to make the little steps up in the green.


I suppose the other solution would have been to tear out the left-hand berm entirely to make more room for a conventional green, but I'm glad I didn't really consider that.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 02:49:23 PM »
Ally:


My preference toward minimalism is really that we are working in three dimensions, and I know that when you change one thing -- say, decide to raise the green by a couple of feet -- you are also changing its relationship to the recovery areas on all sides, often with unintended consequences.


The less I can manage to change things, the fewer of those unintended consequences we have to deal with.


I used to wonder how other architects can visualize massive grading changes and how it will all tie in on completion.  Eventually I decided that most cannot, and just have to deal with the consequences after the work they drew on paper is complete.  So why not just start with the site you were given?  ;) [size=78%]  [/size]


That’s a better way of putting it.


Rather than “do as little as you can to get the best result”, it might work better if I said “make as few changes as necessary to get the best result”


But once you decide to make a change, then make sure you don’t compromise by thinking too small (in area).




David Davis

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 03:11:20 PM »
Isn't that always one of the biggest criticisms of Raynors work, the greens and surrounds not tying in. Did he even try to do that? Somehow he seems to get a pass from almost everyone. Perhaps engineered vs minimalistic which is an interesting discussion though one that seems to allow some courses that benefit from wonderful locations to present fairly engineered courses that don't offer what I'd call tie ins. Examples in my mind, all courses I really like would be Fisher's Island, Sleepy Hollow and of course there are tons of other ones.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 03:14:43 PM by David Davis »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2019, 04:21:25 PM »
Isn't that always one of the biggest criticisms of Raynors work, the greens and surrounds not tying in. Did he even try to do that? Somehow he seems to get a pass from almost everyone. Perhaps engineered vs minimalistic which is an interesting discussion though one that seems to allow some courses that benefit from wonderful locations to present fairly engineered courses that don't offer what I'd call tie ins. Examples in my mind, all courses I really like would be Fisher's Island, Sleepy Hollow and of course there are tons of other ones.


They are just two different styles and there is no reason you can't enjoy both.


However, when we built Old Macdonald, we could not imagine building all the features without worrying about the tie-ins as Raynor and Macdonald might have.  My compromise was to think of it as building a course full of the great links holes they admired.  It's worth noting that places like North Berwick don't always have perfect tie-ins, either . . . but the scale of the artificial work is generally small, so the abrupt little edges of greens are more in scale for a golf shot than the bigger bolder features of, say, The Castle Course.


Raynor was good, though, at keeping his tie-ins reasonable.  The last time I was at Chicago Golf Club, I noticed how most of the greens are higher on one side than the other, so that the banks down to the bunkers are of similar height, instead of having a taller bank on the low side that calls out how artificial the fill is.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 04:40:15 PM »
Tom,


If forced to take a stab at it.  What would you say is the fundamental difference(s) between naturalism and minimalism? I think its an interesting topic, and to this day remain impressed when completely unnatural features of good size can be built and not distinguishable from man's or mother nature's hand... 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 05:06:13 PM »
Tom,


If forced to take a stab at it.  What would you say is the fundamental difference(s) between naturalism and minimalism? I think its an interesting topic, and to this day remain impressed when completely unnatural features of good size can be built and not distinguishable from man's or mother nature's hand...


Kalen:


The two overlap in my philosophy, so I've not really been looking to separate them.


Now that you've made me think about it, though, I think I was a naturalist first.  I say that because being a naturalist will inevitably lead you to want to disturb less if you can.  But being a minimalist first will not necessarily lead you to want to make things look natural.  [cf. Eddie Hackett]

« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 05:08:29 PM by Tom_Doak »

Kalen Braley

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 05:21:19 PM »
Tom,

That seems similar to how my view point has evolved over the years which is: Naturalism is the goal, and minimalism is the preferred methodology to get there.

But too many times, i've seen "lesser" courses stick with just minimalism, perhaps most often due to budget constraints, but the result was uninspired holes and an overall mediocre product that is more about having a golf course vs creating something to savor and enjoy again and again.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 05:25:52 PM »
Good thread.
TD - from reading here and elsewhere, I think being a naturalist first meant you’ve never put an ethos ahead of a great golf hole, ie have never been willing to let the minimalist label stop you from finding/creating the best field of play you can (and only then hiding your hand). It's the skill/craft of you & your associates in hiding that hand that's made all the difference.   
I used to think aesthetics (eg tie-ins) and playability-challenge-shot making intrigue went hand in hand, but I was wrong. They only (successfully) go hand in hand when the architect puts playability-challenge-shot making intrigue first and foremost, and then later or simultaneously covers his tracks. That's why in that long ago Romantic-Logician-Hybrid thread, I'd pegged you as a Hybrid.   
P
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 05:36:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kyle Harris

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 05:33:23 PM »
Tom,


If forced to take a stab at it.  What would you say is the fundamental difference(s) between naturalism and minimalism? I think its an interesting topic, and to this day remain impressed when completely unnatural features of good size can be built and not distinguishable from man's or mother nature's hand...


Kalen:


The two overlap in my philosophy, so I've not really been looking to separate them.


Now that you've made me think about it, though, I think I was a naturalist first.  I say that because being a naturalist will inevitably lead you to want to disturb less if you can.  But being a minimalist first will not necessarily lead you to want to make things look natural.  [cf. Eddie Hackett]


From what I've read about your experience building High Pointe, would you say that naturalism was an exigent of your resources there?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Bernie Bell

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Re: Talking about Tie-ins!
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2019, 05:41:29 PM »
I remain confused about the nomenclature.  A new course, highly regarded on this board, has been described as a "monument to minimalism," and yet it is reported that they moved 300,000 yards of dirt, brought in 2,000 loads of sand cap, and laid 15 miles of pipe.  And that was for 9 holes.  As the words are commonly understood, is that really minimal or natural, regardless of how pleasing the result?

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