Re-engineering Raynor

[Sven Nilsen]

As a compendium to the list of Seth Raynor courses linked to in Nigel Islam's recent thread, and with the permission of the authors of that list, this thread will endeavor to lay out the details of Raynor's involvement with those courses.

Like the Ross and Bendelow threads, I'm going to try to work through his career chronologically.  Please feel free to offer up any additions, corrections or advice as this moves on.  Its going to be a work in progress, so please bear with me and try to limit comments only to courses covered so far. 

One point on the dates used here.  Unlike the list from the other thread where they used the date of opening, this thread will use the first date of involvement by Raynor, as best we know it.

All of the scorecards included in the thread are courtesy of the USGA's collection.

June 25, 1895 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -







Nov. 3, 1966 Sag Harbor Express -






A number of important dates from Raynor's early life:


May 7, 1874 - Born
1894 - Matriculates as a Freshman at Princeton (Princeton University Archives)
1895 - Attends Princeton as a Sophomore (Princeton University Archives)
1896 - Attends Princeton as a Junior (Princeton University Archives)
1897 - Attends Princeton as a Senior (Princeton University Archives)
1898 - There is no record in the Princeton University Archives of Raynor graduating.  Whether this means he did not attend the graduation, or he did not actually receive a degree is unknown, although later reports (including the Princeton Alumni report above) indicate he did technically graduate.
July 11, 1901 - Joins Arthur L. Strange to form a Civil Engineering partnership named Strange & Raynor.
Feb. 13, 1903 - Marries Mary A. Hallock.
1907 - Hired by Charles B. Macdonald (as reported in the Jan. 25, 1926 New York Times and in Scotland's Gift)

[Peter Pallotta]

Sven -
What an outsider-neophyte like me tends always to hope for in these kinds of chronological CVs is more ‘context’ (for lack of a better word) and related history/background. So, right off the bat:
Who was a young SR that he should merit a mention in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle simply for being back home from college?

[Sven Nilsen]

Early Work

Shinnecock Hills CC (Southampton, NY)

Buried in this Summer 1913 Southampton Magazine article is a brief discussion of a young Seth Raynor working for his father when Shinnecock was first being built.  Most likely his first exposure to the game of golf as well as a rudimentary lesson in the construction of a golf course.

















National Golf Links of America (Southampton, NY)

We all know Raynor's background as a surveyor and his hiring by C. B. MacDonald to work on the construction of the National Golf Links of America.  While other sources don't mention NGLA on Raynor's list of architectural accomplishments, I believe this work should be highlighted in any discussion of his career.  MacDonald wrote about Raynor's contributions to the project in Scotland's Gift, including his initial hiring in 1907 to complete a survey map.  NGLA's Club History contains notes on Raynor's involvement with various projects in 1908, including building a dam and a bridge, as well as work on bunkers.  Raynor delivered an invoice to the club in June of 1909 and was paid $155 for his services shortly thereafter.

The following Autumn 1912 Southampton Magazine article is included for two reasons.  First, it is an in depth look at the development of NGLA.  Second, it is one of a few press items that actually mentions Raynor's work.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven -
What an outsider-neophyte like me tends always to hope for in these kinds of chronological CVs is more ‘context’ (for lack of a better word) and related history/background. So, right off the bat:
Who was a young SR that he should merit a mention in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle simply for being back home from college?

Peter:

If I had a more detailed history of his upbringing and early career, perhaps I could spoil your preconceptions. 

On the other hand, maybe its better to let this discussion of his work play out with little detail on the man himself (as there really isn't any to disclose) and we can all live on with the images of the architect we've created in our own minds from what minutiae we know of him.

Sven

[Peter Pallotta]

S -
I don’t know if I had any preconceptions save for my assumption that SR was a ‘working man’, ie had come from modest-to-middle-class means  (especially compared to CBM). Thus the early mention of him in the paper surprised me: it seemed like a snippet from the ‘society pages’, usually reserved for the swells and high hats.
I did learn something though: I didn’t realize that there wasn’t much known about him pre the start of his career.
P

[Sven Nilsen]

1911-12


Piping Rock Club (Locust Valley, NY)

Reports of plans for the golf course at Piping Rock appeared in early 1911.  It is likely that the movers behind the club had already started talking to C. B. MacDonald prior to this date, as there was a great deal of overlap between the members here and the founders of NGLA.  There isn't any contemporaneous discussion I've found of Raynor's work at Piping Rock, nor of his involvement with the changes to the course made in 1914/15 with which he was most likely involved.

May 5, 1911 New York Times -



Oct. 9, 1911 New York Times -



Nov. 1913 Golf Magazine -
















Sleepy Hollow Country Club (Scarborough, NY)

The timing for Sleepy Hollow closely mirrored that of Piping Rock, with the idea for the club being formulated in early 1911 or earlier, work starting thereafter and both courses opening for play in the Spring of 1913.  And like Piping Rock, there were improvements made to the course in the first few years of its existence, work that most likely would have involved Raynor.

March 26, 1911 New York Times -



March 22, 1913 Times Union -



June 13, 1913 The Sun -



Feb. 9, 1915 Evening Telegram -






St. Louis Country Club (St. Louis, MO)

Although the idea for a new course for SLCC may have predated the inception of both Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow, I don't believe CBM and Raynor's involvement came until after those two projects were well underway.

Dec. 23, 1909 St. Louis Post-Dispatch -



Jan. 1914 Golf Magazine -



May 1919 Golfers Magazine -





Two Scorecards, the first from 1926 and the second from a later date noting a longer course with the 5th hole being significantly stretched out and the name changed from Punchbowl to Algonquin.






Forest Park Golf Course (St. Louis, MO)

The articles below put Raynor in St. Louis in the middle of 1912.  No surprise there, as he was working with CBM at St. Louis CC.  But his involvement with the development of the 18 hole Forest Park Golf Course is of interest as this was, regardless of whether or not he did go on to supervise the construction of the course, his first solo endeavor as a golf architect.

Forest Park had a temporary 9 hole course by the time of the reports of Raynor's involvement on the permanent 18 hole course, and would eventually end up with 27 total holes.  I have not seen anything that delineates which holes from those permanent and temporary courses ended up in the 18 hole or 9 hole routing or if they were ever mixed together.

June 14, 1912 St. Louis Post-Dispatch -



June 15, 1912 St. Louis Star and Times -



Scorecards for the 18 (from 1922) and 9 hole courses at Forest Park.

[Ira Fishman]

Sven -
What an outsider-neophyte like me tends always to hope for in these kinds of chronological CVs is more ‘context’ (for lack of a better word) and related history/background. So, right off the bat:
Who was a young SR that he should merit a mention in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle simply for being back home from college?

I agree. Even in the era where the Society pages received a lot of play, a return of a college student would merit a mention only if the Family had prominence or an interesting story. And George Kennan is an example of Princeton welcoming a Midwesterner of modest means, but Raynor lived in Southampton and attended Princeton Prep. None of this may be relevant to his career, but Peter raises a valid point about full context.


Ira

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Raynor family were well known, well respected, and well invested in the L.I. community,  I believe they settled there in the late 1600s. Probably worth the mention.


   

[Sven Nilsen]

Raynor's grandfather was the station agent of Manorville, Long Island for over 40 years, having had perhaps the longest career of any person in such a role in the country.  In this role he would have overseen the arrival and delivery of not only freight, but incoming and outgoing post as well.

My guess is that any news of young Seth was passed on to the newspapers through his grandfather.  There are similar reports on some of Raynor's cousins in other newspapers, as well as periodic reporting on various social activities in Manorville.

Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Even in the era where the Society pages received a lot of play, a return of a college student would merit a mention only if the Family had prominence or an interesting story.

I think you guys would be surprised what those old society pages contained.  To give you full context, here's the LI Notes article in its entirety.  Not all Vanderbilts, Morgans and Whitneys.

[Jim Nugent]

According to Emmet, the Biarritz at Piping Rock (#9) had two greens, one behind the other, separated by a gully.  IIRC, an article in 1921 about St. Louis CC, MacRaynor's next course, said the same thing about its Biarritz (#2).  If so, it's not all that surprising that the clubs might turn the gully into green, creating one, long, continuous green as we see in many modern Biarritz's. 

It never has made sense to me that Raynor built all his early Biarritz greens behind the gully, and the clubs took it upon themselves to radically change his design by making the approach and the gully part of the green itself. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim,

Perhaps this a discussion for a different thread (and if you search around you can find a few already touching on this conversation, several of which you've participated in).

Sven

[Jim_Kennedy]

....and perhaps it doesn't seem inappropriate to provide a short answer to Peter's question. With that out of the way, pray, continue.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Peter: Your question is a valid one, although if Sven does not want to discuss it here, I understand. Where Raynor acquired the money to attend Princeton Prep (which no longer exists) and Princeton, from which he did not graduate, has been a question in my mind for years and I have never found a definitive answer. Also, was not uncommon in those days for people who returned from college to have their name mentioned in small local papers.

[Peter Pallotta]

Anthony - you and Sven and others are focusing on the work itself, and that’s totally understandable (and I didn’t mean to mar this particular thread, which is indeed focused on the work). In fact, it probably isn’t important what ‘class’ SR came from (or entered into). But, maybe because of my own working class roots and my own artistic/aesthetic leanings, I have always found it interesting to explore how an artist-craftsman’s  social-economic upbringing influenced his later work. For example: to borrow a bit from the late Tom Macwood’s essay on the Arts & Crafts movement, I don’t  find it surprising that the champions of the ‘working man’ and of ‘traditional manufacturing’ were men like John Ruskin and William Morris — themselves the highly educated products of the upper middle class.
But again, enough of this sidebar. I was just hoping for a bit more ‘context’ for the work from the folks who know.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Peter: I'm with you. I've done digging on the subject and never been able to find anything. I also don't know why he didn't graduate after apparently spending 3 1/2 years at Princeton. I do, however, think he took two years off between prep school and college after the death of his father.

[Sven Nilsen]

1913


Misquamicut Golf Club (Westerly, RI)

I don't have anything from the press that covers Raynor's work here in 1913 which comprised renovating 5 holes.  The only article I have on the course from the era covers that acquisition of additional land, which may have led to his hiring.

July 11, 1913 Norwich Bulletin -



There were a number of club related letters from the club's archives that note Raynor's involvement:

Sept. 27, 1913 - Letter between George Sykes and George Driggs mentioning Raynor

April 18, 1914 - Letter mentioning Raynor at Misquamicut making recommendations to his 5 new greens

May 9, 1914 - Letter reporting on payment to be made to Raynor

May 15, 1914 - Letter to members noting Raynor as designer of 5 new holes

May 26, 1914 - Letter noting Raynor back at Misquamicut making further recommendations to his 5 new greens

1931 Scorecard -




The Greenbrier No. 1 (Old White) (White Sulphur Springs, WV)

The Greenbrier already had a 9 hole course by Alex Findlay in place when C. B. MacDonald and Raynor were engaged to design a full 18 hole circuit.  The coverage of this project was different than the previous CBM/Raynor courses, in that Raynor was mentioned by name and given almost co-credit for the design.

Raynor would return here in the early 1920's to make improvements while also working on the other courses at the resort.

Dec. 1913 Golf Magazine -





Dec. 13, 1913 Brooklyn Times Union -



Oct. 1914 Golf Illustrated -



Oct. 1914 Golf Magazine -





1914 Plan -



Oct. 1915 Golf Illustrated -







Sept. 24, 1922 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



Sept. 1924 Golf Illustrated -







Two versions of the scorecard, the first is from 1930.

[Sven Nilsen]

1914


Nassau CC (Nassau, NY)

Raynor renovated the existing course.  From his work, one hole remains today.

Feb. 1, 1914 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -





Feb. 3, 1914 New York Times -



March 7, 1914 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



April 3, 1914 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



April 20, 1915 Evening Telegram -





May 1, 1915 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -




Lido Club (Long Beach, NY)

Lido has been discussed in great detail on this site, including here: 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html

Feb. 14, 1915 New York Times -











July 1915 Golf Illustrated article penned by C. B. Macdonald -











Model of the course -



The scorecard of the course, taken from Golf Architecture in America.




Westhampton Country Club (Westhampton Beach, NY)

There were reports of both Raynor and Barker being involved at Westhampton. 

Aug. 9, 1914 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -



Aug. 15, 1914 Brooklyn Life -



Feb. 1915 Golf Magazine -



1939 Scorecard -




North Shore Country Club (Glen Head, NY)

If you're not familiar with North Shore and Raynor, you missed a classic GolfClubAtlas moment.  Catch up here:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704207504575129910042526320

and here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42325.0.html

The following July 26, 1915 Brooklyn Daily Eagle article is included as it contains the best early description of the holes that I've seen:



1933 Scorecard -

[MCirba]

Great stuff, Sven...thanks once again for your efforts.


I don't want to distract but did note how odd it is that the 1912 article you posted is the very first printed connection of Raynor to NGLA I've seen when that project was widely and extensively covered in the NYC press for six straight years prior.


I'd also note that both Raynor and Mortimer Payne are mentioned and I'm curious how their responsibilities overlapped and when Raynor was actually hired.  It would likely be a fascinating story.


Finally, it's clear that by 1912 that former founding member Walter Travis who had been on the project from at least 1905 and played with Macdonald during the soft July 1910 opening tourney was now officially persona non grata in Macdonaldland.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:

It wasn’t the first article mentioning Raynor at NGLA.  There were others from as early as 1908.

Sven

[MCirba]

Mike:


It wasn’t the first article mentioning Raynor at NGLA.  There were others from as early as 1908.


Sven

Sven,


First that I've seen.


Would love to see the others, thanks.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

With regards to Misquamicut, I have no newspaper articles even mentioning the work, let alone Raynor being there, but I have letters from  or to the club confirming him on site in the spring of 1914.


AP

[Jim Nugent]

The Forest Park course described in the 1912 article differs significantly from the one I played in the 1960s/early 70s. 

The article says the first three holes started at the Debalivier entrance, on the north side of the park, and ran due west.  The first three holes of the course I played started a bit south of there, and went southwest.  This is not a trivial change: the topology in those two parts of the park is completely different. 

The article says the Art Hill hole was #6.  It was #4 on the course I played.  This isn't just a numbering change, either:  the first three holes as described above end probably a half mile from the foot of Art Hill.   

The article says (I think -- it's hard to read) the course was 6000 yards long.  The one I played was 5800+. 

The article says 8 holes were west of the Art Museum.  In the 1960s 11 holes were west of the Art Museum.
The #16 I played is completely different, too, from the one described in the article.   

The article was written before the course was built.  If the article is accurate, either a) they changed the plans back then before the course opened, or b) some time afterward someone made major alterations to routing and substance of the course.  I wonder if Foulis, who until now I thought was given credit for the course, had anything to do with that? 

Another real interesting part of the article brought up River des Peres.  It says the 'river' runs through Raynor's layout, criss-crossing the course some six times.  That surprised me because in the 1960s, River des Peres didn't make it close to Forest Park.  It was (and I believe is) more like a drainage channel, that passes through south St. Louis and empties into the Mississippi.  I had no idea it ever went through Forest Park.  But I read that in the 19th century it did.  Before the 1904 World's Fair they covered it up with wooden channels, and then shortly after the fair made the park section entirely subterranean. 

'Shortly after the fair' could mean anything, I guess, but I wouldn't have expected it to mean nearly a decade or more. 

[Jim Nugent]

The article about St. Louis CC surprises me too.  It says the club bought a tract of land at Clayton and North & South roads.  But neither of those streets borders SLCC.  They aren't even very near them. 

The closest Clayton gets is about a half mile from the course, and most of the course is further than that.  I don't think North and South intersects Clayton.  Maybe it did back then, but that probably would be well over a mile east of the course. 

The roads closest to SLCC are Ladue and Price.  Hole #9, e.g., runs entirely along Ladue Road, and is named "Ladue."  I'm pretty sure Price and Ladue both existed back then, exactly where they are now.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jim:

The bond issuance for putting the River des Peres underground took place in 1923.

Sven