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Rob Marshall

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Placement of fairway bunkers
« on: September 04, 2019, 04:20:36 PM »
How do your determine how far a fairway bunker is located from the tee? How would it differ on a dogleg vs a hole that is fairly straight?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 04:40:28 PM »
How long is a piece of string?


I’m always concerned when I see every bunker placed 270-300 from the back tee and I’m amazed at how many architects trot something like this out as important.


On links courses, bunkers at 200 can challenge, as can bunkers at 375, depending on wind and quality of golfer. Not to mention bunkers used for other reasons such as deception or carry or even visuals.


That’s why it is sometimes better to find a natural roll in the land and start from there. If it is not crystal clear that another position will offer a considerably more strategic hole to the masses, then stick with nature. It’s too easy to get sucked in to designing a bunker scheme that looks like it came straight off a drawing.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 04:44:01 PM »
At courses like Hidden Creek bunkers dot the fairways at varying lengths from the tee. Depending on your tee shot most are in play, as are the bunkers at TOC, some on your second shot.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 05:15:12 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 04:50:01 PM »
Rob,


Finding natural locations for bunkers is a good place to start, to limit the amount of construction and ensure the bunkers are somewhat visible from the tee or tee shot landing area.  Trying to find certain distances from the tee on a undulating site will result in some bunkers that look out of place. 


On a flat site, where some construction of features is a given, then the architect has the ability to locate fairway bunkers as they see fit in terms of distance from the tee.  But if they are always a pre-determined distance from the back tee, they tend to only affect a certain class of player and are never a factor in the strategic decisions of many others.  Variety is key.


Tyler

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2019, 02:27:17 AM »
How long is a piece of string?


I’m always concerned when I see every bunker placed 270-300 from the back tee and I’m amazed at how many architects trot something like this out as important.


On links courses, bunkers at 200 can challenge, as can bunkers at 375, depending on wind and quality of golfer. Not to mention bunkers used for other reasons such as deception or carry or even visuals.


That’s why it is sometimes better to find a natural roll in the land and start from there. If it is not crystal clear that another position will offer a considerably more strategic hole to the masses, then stick with nature. It’s too easy to get sucked in to designing a bunker scheme that looks like it came straight off a drawing.
+1
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 04:54:09 PM »
Rob,


Nice topic.  I bet someone has written a book on this. ;D   Or, devoted a few chapters to it anyway.  I had started to write on this when I was a columnist for Golf Course Industry, but never got the chance to finish. :(


I fall into the "mathematical placement, balanced by natural location" school of thought.  The math often includes a directive from the client as to how many or how big an area of sand they want to maintain. 
IMHO, we can't be all intuitive or math oriented to get the best results.  Nor are we usually free to just go wild. 
Bunkers cost so much to build and maintain, except at the highest budgeted clubs, very few courses can afford to randomly dot them down the fw.  Or, afford their effects on speed of play.  Seriously.  We redid La Costa with its plethora of Dick Wilson bunkers.  Even removing several, in playing with D players, including some female recreational players, we found that their second (of two good) shots found the bunkers too often!  :(   And, I rarely place one more than 200 yards from the green on a par 4, reasoning a player who is that far from the green already can't hit it, so it's really a waste (even though "fore" bunkers often look wonderful, so it might be done in a special case, i.e., create views from clubhouse)


Most architects use a centerline and dogleg point at 750 (rare, except on shorter courses), 800, 850, 875 or 900 feet.  Many then place hazards at those distances.  There can even be the question of placing the center, front or back at that distance?  It really doesn't matter because the typical bunker spreads over 25-100 foot of length along the fw.


Personally, I adjust for likely effects of wind and elevation change, and sometimes roll, placing them at what I call "effective driving (or carry) distance" a step some architects do seem to forget.  And, if my math says it ought to be at, say 743 feet, but the most natural place to locate one (i.e., a gentle upslope facing the golfer so the bunker is easy to build and be visible) is at 699 feet, I just go ahead and put it there, reasoning only a small % of golfers actually hit it the exact distance presumed when setting the centerline, so some randomness is a nice thing.  Also, both visibility and general aesthetics affects location.


IMHO, there are three basic ways to locate a bunker from that adjusted for effective driving distance target dot (in construction, we usually stake the centerline at a constant distance for less confusing construction measurements, sometimes having a shaper tell us that "he moved the bunker for us" usually be wondering why it wasn't right at the Landing Area point...….)


- Short of it if I want a carry bunker (usually angled and somewhat elongated)   Especially with carry bunkers, it seems obvious that the shorter the distance, the more golfers will be able to enjoy the challenge, at the expense of top players being able to carry it a bit too easily.  That decision varies at every course, and with topo as with any hazard.


- N
ext to it for a skirting bunker, which has the most flexibility because I figure some balls will fly in it, others roll in it, etc. so exact distance isn't really critical either.
- Past it if I want a distance limiting bunker.  In some ways, this has some elongation needs - to be sure the longest hitters can't carry it, sometimes it needs to go to over 300+ yards from the back tee, but start somewhere around 275from the back tees or so to make long hitters contemplate the 3 wood.
Of course, there are any number of combos, such as two left, one right, etc. that can be considered to affect different players differently.  While I do have a "hip pocket" list of potential combinations which I consult in an effort to avoid repetitiveness, as other architects have mentioned, in the end, leaning towards some intuitive feeling, also influenced by how something looks in the field, usually works best in the end. 



Not to mention, if we feel like we should not have unlimited bunkers (its easy to over do them according to Donald Ross and others) then placing them where they serve not only for hazards, but also aesthetics, as mentioned, safety, "save" or directional devices and/or other functional purposes is something that might decide whether and where they go.  For example, it's hard to make uphill sand bunkers visible, so in many cases we go with mounds of some type, raising them up for visibility, without the expense of building a sand bunker.


Short version......it depends! ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2019, 10:22:17 PM »
Thanks Jeff,


[size=0px]“Short of it if I want a carry bunker (usually angled and somewhat elongated)   Especially with carry bunkers, it seems obvious that the shorter the distance, the more golfers will be able to enjoy the challenge, at the expense of top players being able to carry it a bit too easily.  That decision varies at every course, and with topo as with any hazard.”[/size][/color][/size][size=0px]


This is what I was wondering. The changes are for all players not just the top players. Disappointing for some players but great for others. I guess it’s all about balance for everyone. Thanks for your post. Good stuff.



[/size]
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2019, 10:45:53 PM »
I do not like it when bunkers are placed same distance across the fairway from each other. I do like it if one is 200 yards on the left and one is 240 yards on the right - something like that...
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 01:03:00 AM »
One on the left side of the fairway at 250 yards and one on the right side at 275 yards.
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Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 01:46:24 AM »
Paul, David,


Yes if you are going to bunker both sides of the fairway, then staggering the distances does usually work better than having the bunkers opposite each other - really this is just another form of the diagonal.


But I normally start with trying to keep fairway bunkers to one side (or more central) before automatically thinking about both sides - a lot depends on the natural rolls, the aesthetics and whether the green strategy is clearly accepting from one side over the other. Thinking about that stagger as a first option can end up in repetitive schemes. Have a little fun and try and come up with different ideas and bunker challenges on each hole is my first port of call.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 03:03:25 AM »
What about maintenance and usage aspects?
Features placed in what I shall loosely term unfavourable or inconvenient positions or require considerable upkeep tend to be changed or even disappear over time.
atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Placement of fairway bunkers
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 01:17:26 PM »
Thanks Jeff,


[size=0px]“Short of it if I want a carry bunker (usually angled and somewhat elongated)   Especially with carry bunkers, it seems obvious that the shorter the distance, the more golfers will be able to enjoy the challenge, at the expense of top players being able to carry it a bit too easily.  That decision varies at every course, and with topo as with any hazard.”[/size][/color][size=0px]


This is what I was wondering. The changes are for all players not just the top players. Disappointing for some players but great for others. I guess it’s all about balance for everyone. Thanks for your post. Good stuff.



[/size]
[/color]



Rob,


I can't tell you how many times I have been at a renovation and the discussion turns to "what would happen when the Tour shows up" when there is no plan for the Tour to show up.  Even if you consider those players, at far less than 1% of drivers that hit it 300+, its a low value proposition to place bunkers out that far at the other 99% of the courses.  I have considered, especially on carry holes, adding a second back tee, further back than the main back tee, mostly a button just big enough to mow to accommodate those guys, but they get unmown in a hurry when there isn't a divot in the first five years, LOL.


Thomas,


I had one client who was convinced, in the whole value proposition, that no bunkers should be placed over 300 yards, as they would rarely see use, and directed the use of increased fw contour - which adds no cost to construction or maintenance really - as the better option.  Nowadays, when middle and forward tees are moved up proportionally to the entire hole length, rather than split by 25-30 yards, some combos can put the fw hazards at the right distances for both long and shorter players.


And in a now typical sand bunker reduction project, the client took me out to my fw bunker on the 8th at Sand Creek Station, which I had made big for outside views (road, housing) and showed me the outer half hadn't ever been raked because it saw no action.  It is hard to justify keeping a bunker that rarely comes into play, an idea I think started by Mac in the depression when he was stressing economy, and even ANGC came out with something line 34 bunkers.  We forget those ideas in good times but they tend to come back and haunt us.


As to bunkers at the same distance, on the 18th at Sand Creek I decided to do that, perhaps the first time in my career.  Ron Whitten wrote a review and was actually stunned that anyone would try that, the idea being more or less poo pooed so strongly after the RTJ/Wilson/Joe Lee era the it was presumed dead. ;D   Like almost any other idea for fw sand bunkering, I never thought it was so good to repeat up to 14 times per course, but never so bad that doing it once was not a good idea.  That said, while I like at least one narrow fw as a distinct tee shot challenge,  it usually works out that there is a wooded hole where that can be done just as well without sand bunkers.


I recall many par 5 holes when I was young that had bunkers both sides of the presumed second shot LZ.  To me, that is okay, especially where laying up takes you over 150 yards or so, sort of the edge of the accuracy zone, probably putting its best use on holes nearly 600 yards long. (i.e., the "true 3 shot par 5" whatever that is.  Using it similarly on a mid length par 4 tee shot where the same layout distance can be created probably makes some sense, too.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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