[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

For probably close to a year, Nigel Islam, Bret Lawrence and I have worked to put together an extremely accurate list of courses associated with Seth Raynor. It covers all facets of his work including renovations and designs that were never built. We also list the courses that claim or are purported  to have a Raynor connection but do not.

http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2295/seth-raynor-a-comprehensive-list-of-the-projects-with-which-he-was-associated


Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:


That's a great list, thanks for compiling it.


George Bahto's manuscript had some info on Raynor possibly doing a couple of layouts for courses in Chile - have you seen any info about those?


Also, was Tge Creek entirely Raynor's work with no involvement from Macdonald ?  I do remember it was on Whitten's list of the 12 original Macdonald designs.

[Jim Nugent]

Anthony, I take the Cypress Point course you list is not the one that exists now and is credited to Mackenzie.  Yet supposedly Raynor did a routing for CPC, which fell by the wayside due to his untimely death.  Do you know if that is rumor or fact?  If fact, anything solid about Raynor's design there? 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

We've never come across anything with regards to Raynor in Chile and have no travel documents showing that he went there. As far as what we know of the Creek, there was mention of Macdonald in a newspaper article but that was not uncommon for a large amount of Raynor's work, Macdonald being mentioned as if he was involved. I believe the official Creek history is that it is a Raynor design.


That is the Cypress course that exists now. Mackenzie used much of Raynor's routing.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

At The Olympic Club we have, hanging in the locker room, a copy of Raynor's routing for a course to be built on the property (just begging to be reimagined on what is now the Ocean Course!!!). However, what's not clear to me is... was Raynor commissioned by Lakeside CC or was it by The Olympic Club once we had taken ownership of the property and assets of Lakeside?

[Jim Nugent]

That is the Cypress course that exists now. Mackenzie used much of Raynor's routing.

Seems like Raynor should get co-design credit then. 

[Nigel Islam]

I believe the Chile information was a friend of George's that thought a course looked like a Raynor/Banks and George agreed when he looked at the pictures.  He attributed it to Banks.


This is of course where we are with Minnesota Valley as well. Several people with much more of an architectural pedigree than I believe it is a Raynor design. However, contemporary evidence is lacking.

[Nigel Islam]

At The Olympic Club we have, hanging in the locker room, a copy of Raynor's routing for a course to be built on the property (just begging to be reimagined on what is now the Ocean Course!!!). However, what's not clear to me is... was Raynor commissioned by Lakeside CC or was it by The Olympic Club once we had taken ownership of the property and assets of Lakeside?

Wayne, It's a complicated question. The answer is the course was for your club, but they did not yet own the land.


Bret found Olympian archives on archives.net which clearly state that the current Olympic Club was leasing the land at the time Raynor was commissioned. They had every intention of purchasing the land, but did not do so until later on. I believe there was a lease to own agreement. I need to go back through the Olympian and find the transition point where they bought the land. I know the Springs Valley Water Company owned some of the land, and they eventually bought more land thanks Raynor would have had access to.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nice work compiling this in one easy to read location.


Would you guys say the same analysis that applies to Cypress applies to MPCC Shore as well?


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Anthony:


That's a great list, thanks for compiling it.


George Bahto's manuscript had some info on Raynor possibly doing a couple of layouts for courses in Chile - have you seen any info about those?


Also, was Tge Creek entirely Raynor's work with no involvement from Macdonald ?  I do remember it was on Whitten's list of the 12 original Macdonald designs.

    This is correct, although Whitten himself has found out more in the years since that book was published.
    It gets really murky trying to separate CBM from Raynor or even Raynor from Banks to me. You can make an argument that Yale and Creek could be in the "MacDonald and Raynor category." MacDonald was an officer at Creek if memory serves me right, and was involved in bringing Flynn in to fix the drainage issues they had after Raynor died.


I also have newspaper clippings that attribute Monterrey Peninsula CC Dunes and Riddell's Bay in Bermuda to MacDonald.I personally would not give credit to C.B. for either of these however. As I said it can get messy.
   

[Jim Nugent]

Just saw on the list that Raynor routed Forest Park 27 holes in St. Louis MO in the early teens of the 20th century.  I always heard one of the Foulis brothers (students of Old Tom) designed the courses.  The timing could work out for Raynor, though: he was in St. Louis to design/build St. Louis CC then. 

I'm struggling to think of any templates at Forest Park, which I played scores of times.  My time was over 50 years later, so maybe the course removed some of Raynor's design (or maybe he didn't get around to that aspect).  The routing was real cool, working its way in and around the St. Louis World Fairgrounds.  That was the 18-hole course.  The 9 hole was of little interest to anyone but beginners or maybe 50-handicappers.   

[Nigel Islam]

Nice work compiling this in one easy to read location.


Would you guys say the same analysis that applies to Cypress applies to MPCC Shore as well?


Sven

Sven,


   Dunes was probably really a Raynor. It was almost done and opened July 1, 1926. Raynor died in late January. Cypress wasn't even close to being done let alone started. I'm not sure anyone has clear evidence that Raynor was responsible for the actual routing. Raynor did do A routing, but who knows if it was THE routing. I'm a Raynor guy, but I wouldn't deprive MacKenzie full credit. It really depends on your definition of who the architect is/was.
    I know what you meant when you said Shore, but interestingly they broke ground on that course long before Baldock came in.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Wayne:


Raynor was interviews for the club magazine, The Olympic, with the story appearing in the March 1918 edition. It is to your knowledge, the only time Raynor ever sat for an interview. His quotes comprise probably fewer than 50 words.


Anthony

[Nigel Islam]

Just saw on the list that Raynor routed Forest Park 27 holes in St. Louis MO in the early teens of the 20th century.  I always heard one of the Foulis brothers (students of Old Tom) designed the courses.  The timing could work out for Raynor, though: he was in St. Louis to design/build St. Louis CC then. 

I'm struggling to think of any templates at Forest Park, which I played scores of times.  My time was over 50 years later, so maybe the course removed some of Raynor's design (or maybe he didn't get around to that aspect).  The routing was real cool, working its way in and around the St. Louis World Fairgrounds.  That was the 18-hole course.  The 9 hole was of little interest to anyone but beginners or maybe 50-handicappers.

All correct Jim. Three newspaper articles Sven found a couple years ago say Raynor designed it for Dwight Davis and parks department. Timing fits,but who knows? That might be the iffiest one in our list. Maybe wishful thinking on my part since it's the closest course to me😜


There is a par 3 with a big swale there, but we have no idea when it was put in.

[Nigel Islam]

Wayne:


Raynor was interviews for the club magazine, The Olympic, with the story appearing in the March 1918 edition. It is to your knowledge, the only time Raynor ever sat for an interview. His quotes comprise probably fewer than 50 words.


Anthony

Correct and if anyone has the picture from that Theodore Bonnet interview we'd love to see it!

[Jim Nugent]

Just saw on the list that Raynor routed Forest Park 27 holes in St. Louis MO in the early teens of the 20th century.  I always heard one of the Foulis brothers (students of Old Tom) designed the courses.  The timing could work out for Raynor, though: he was in St. Louis to design/build St. Louis CC then. 

I'm struggling to think of any templates at Forest Park, which I played scores of times.  My time was over 50 years later, so maybe the course removed some of Raynor's design (or maybe he didn't get around to that aspect).  The routing was real cool, working its way in and around the St. Louis World Fairgrounds.  That was the 18-hole course.  The 9 hole was of little interest to anyone but beginners or maybe 50-handicappers.

All correct Jim. Three newspaper articles Sven found a couple years ago say Raynor designed it for Dwight Davis and parks department. Timing fits,but who knows? That might be the iffiest one in our list. Maybe wishful thinking on my part since it's the closest course to me😜


There is a par 3 with a big swale there, but we have no idea when it was put in.

That swale came fairly recently, I think as part of the Hale Irwin renovations.  It absolutely was not there in 1970. 

Just coincidence probably, but the 2nd and 3rd holes at both SLCC and Forest Park were both long, hard par 3s, with the second on each course especially long (220 yards or so), and the 3rd in the 185-190 range.   

[Nigel Islam]

Just saw on the list that Raynor routed Forest Park 27 holes in St. Louis MO in the early teens of the 20th century.  I always heard one of the Foulis brothers (students of Old Tom) designed the courses.  The timing could work out for Raynor, though: he was in St. Louis to design/build St. Louis CC then. 

I'm struggling to think of any templates at Forest Park, which I played scores of times.  My time was over 50 years later, so maybe the course removed some of Raynor's design (or maybe he didn't get around to that aspect).  The routing was real cool, working its way in and around the St. Louis World Fairgrounds.  That was the 18-hole course.  The 9 hole was of little interest to anyone but beginners or maybe 50-handicappers.

All correct Jim. Three newspaper articles Sven found a couple years ago say Raynor designed it for Dwight Davis and parks department. Timing fits,but who knows? That might be the iffiest one in our list. Maybe wishful thinking on my part since it's the closest course to me😜


There is a par 3 with a big swale there, but we have no idea when it was put in.

That swale came fairly recently, I think as part of the Hale Irwin renovations.  It absolutely was not there in 1970. 

Just coincidence probably, but the 2nd and 3rd holes at both SLCC and Forest Park were both long, hard par 3s, with the second on each course especially long (220 yards or so), and the 3rd in the 185-190 range.   

Hillenbrand confirmed with Irwin's guy (Gentry maybe?)  that they did not work on that green. Here is another coincidence. Both courses had holes named Oasis and Crater. Also from contemporary (almost) scorecards.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Wayne:


Raynor was interviews for the club magazine, The Olympic, with the story appearing in the March 1918 edition. It is to your knowledge, the only time Raynor ever sat for an interview. His quotes comprise probably fewer than 50 words.


Anthony

Correct and if anyone has the picture from that Theodore Bonnet interview we'd love to see it!

Very interesting and thanks for the insight!

[Joel_Stewart]

That is the Cypress course that exists now. Mackenzie used much of Raynor's routing.

Seems like Raynor should get co-design credit then.

That's speculation that Mackenzie used Raynors routing. The Raynor routing has never been found. We'll never know.

[Jim Nugent]

Hillenbrand confirmed with Irwin's guy (Gentry maybe?)  that they did not work on that green. Here is another coincidence. Both courses had holes named Oasis and Crater. Also from contemporary (almost) scorecards.

Man, maybe my memory has faded.  I'm sure the first Biarritz I ever saw was at SLCC.  It kind of stunned me.  That was well after I'd played Forest Park a number of times. 

Let's see, Crater on SLCC is probably #12.  Guessing 6 or 18 for Oasis.  No clue which holes at Forest Park had those names.  btw, the green complexes were probably the weakest part of the course. 

I've told this story before, Nigel, and maybe you know it, but even in the 1960s Forest Park 18 went through two different first holes.  The second of them pretty well tracks one of the holes on Irwin's redesign, only in reverse.  Before that, number one started east of there.  A stream diagonally crossed the landing zone from left to right, then ran along the right side of the fairway to the green.  I think some tennis courts are located there now. 

[Sven Nilsen]

That is the Cypress course that exists now. Mackenzie used much of Raynor's routing.

Seems like Raynor should get co-design credit then.

That's speculation that Mackenzie used Raynors routing. The Raynor routing has never been found. We'll never know.

Joel:


In the thread below you can find a Cypress routing that was put to paper well before Mackenzie and Hunter were involved with the project. 


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66837.0.html


Whether or not the routing was the one produced by Raynor is open to debate, but it certainly seems like it.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Hillenbrand confirmed with Irwin's guy (Gentry maybe?)  that they did not work on that green. Here is another coincidence. Both courses had holes named Oasis and Crater. Also from contemporary (almost) scorecards.

Man, maybe my memory has faded.  I'm sure the first Biarritz I ever saw was at SLCC.  It kind of stunned me.  That was well after I'd played Forest Park a number of times. 

Let's see, Crater on SLCC is probably #12.  Guessing 6 or 18 for Oasis.  No clue which holes at Forest Park had those names.  btw, the green complexes were probably the weakest part of the course. 

I've told this story before, Nigel, and maybe you know it, but even in the 1960s Forest Park 18 went through two different first holes.  The second of them pretty well tracks one of the holes on Irwin's redesign, only in reverse.  Before that, number one started east of there.  A stream diagonally crossed the landing zone from left to right, then ran along the right side of the fairway to the green.  I think some tennis courts are located there now.

I'm not saying the Biarritz isn't recent. I'm just saying Irwin's group didn't do it. I think it's safe to say Raynor might have done a routing for Forest Park. Whether it was ever a Raynor course or was a Raynor course I have no idea.

[Sven Nilsen]

One addition I'd add is the Cow Neck course of the Southampton CC where Raynor did plans in 1921/22.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

One addition I'd add is the Cow Neck course of the Southampton CC where Raynor did plans in 1921/22.


Sven

Yes he did, you are correct. He also did a third routing for a sight at Scot’s Landing. It took several years to complete Southampton. It was likely finished by two surveyors Raynor worked closely with named Wallace Halsey and Charles Baird.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Good point, Sven. We should add the Cow's Neck routing and first Southampton routing, the one drawn up before additional land was purchased to make today's course.

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