[Tom_Doak]

It's fascinating that you guys have fiund so many routings for Raynor courses that were never built.


It's also kind of odd.  I must have done routings for somewhere between 50 and 100 projects that never happened.  There were a few that I spent a lot of time on, and a lot that represent no more than a day or two of effort.


I plan to include a few of these in my routing book - the ones that had great potential, or got built by someone else.  But there are also lots of them I would have a hard time remembering at all - and my memory is pretty good!

[Nigel Islam]

It's fascinating that you guys have fiund so many routings for Raynor courses that were never built.


It's also kind of odd.  I must have done routings for somewhere between 50 and 100 projects that never happened.  There were a few that I spent a lot of time on, and a lot that represent no more than a day or two of effort.


I plan to include a few of these in my routing book - the ones that had great potential, or got built by someone else.  But there are also lots of them I would have a hard time remembering at all - and my memory is pretty good!

Maybe you should try to write all of them down for the future golfclubatlas geek that attempts to track your work since newspapers don’t write about that stuff anymore.😁


I love getting on the Renaissance site, C&Cs, and Hanse’s websites because they have all defined the work they have done quite well.

[Tom_Doak]

I love getting on the Renaissance site, C&Cs, and Hanse’s websites because they have all defined the work they have done quite well.

Thank you.  I've always tried to set a high bar for what I will take credit for, and what part belongs rightly to others [past and present].


It makes quite a contrast to those who make their resume appear much much bigger than it really is - which is much more common in the business.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom:


In many cases, the second courses Raynor drew were just basic routings without bunkering, features, etc. Yale and Mountain Lake are that way. The second Fishers course, though, was a full drawing.


The one that intrigues me the most is Hay Harbor. According to the club minutes, Raynor produced a plaster model of his design. Wonder what happened to that?


AP

[Nigel Islam]

Tom:


In many cases, the second courses Raynor drew were just basic routings without bunkering, features, etc. Yale and Mountain Lake are that way. The second Fishers course, though, was a full drawing.


The one that intrigues me the most is Hay Harbor. According to the club minutes, Raynor produced a plaster model of his design. Wonder what happened to that?


AP

Agreed. Also Raynor did this Hay Harbor routing long before the Fishers Island course as Anthony taught me. The plasticine model was a go to move for Raynor. He used them at a lot of courses. Metairie, Mountain Lake, Mid Ocean to name a few. Maybe someday they will turn up.


The Olmsted archives on Flickr.com have been very beneficial to turning up routings. Bret Lawrence is a whiz at deciphering info from those things. He found a third nine for Mid Ocean Club that was never built there.

[Bret Lawrence]

If you break down the courses that Raynor designed but never built you will find a handfull of these courses were designed just before Raynor passed away:


Old Del Monte renovation
New Del Monte course
Cypress Point
Monterey CC Shore course
Cragin Park


Another 5 were second courses for courses he had already built:


Fishers Island
Mountain Lake
Mid-Ocean
Yale
Yeamans Hall


The courses left over are:


Coral Keys- can be found on Flickr in the Olmsted Archives


E.C. Shotwell private course-can be found on Flickr in the Olmsted Archives.


Glen Acres (Mossey Springs)- There are several articles describing the yardages of the golf course as proposed.  This course was never built, but there is a course today in the same general vicinity.  There is a thread on here discussing this course.


Hay Harbor- The club history has information that Raynor designed a course and provided a plaster model as Tony mentioned earlier.


Olympic Club- We all know the interview which describes the Raynor layout.  This layout was never built.


Saint George CC-Raynor returned to Bermuda after Mid-Ocean was completed.  After some digging Nigel discovered that Saint George had a course laid out on the property several years before Emmet built his course on the same piece of land.


Suffolk County Country Club- There are articles describing this course as proposed with yardages.  This land eventually became Timber Point and was designed by Alison.


Bret

[Nigel Islam]

If you break down the courses that Raynor designed but never built you will find a handfull of these courses were designed just before Raynor passed away:


Old Del Monte renovation
New Del Monte course
Cypress Point
Monterey CC Shore course
Cragin Park


Another 5 were second courses for courses he had already built:


Fishers Island
Mountain Lake
Mid-Ocean
Yale
Yeamans Hall


The courses left over are:


Coral Keys- can be found on Flickr in the Olmsted Archives


E.C. Shotwell private course-can be found on Flickr in the Olmsted Archives.


Glen Acres (Mossey Springs)- There are several articles describing the yardages of the golf course as proposed.  This course was never built, but there is a course today in the same general vicinity.  There is a thread on here discussing this course.


Hay Harbor- The club history has information that Raynor designed a course and provided a plaster model as Tony mentioned earlier.


Olympic Club- We all know the interview which describes the Raynor layout.  This layout was never built.


Saint George CC-Raynor returned to Bermuda after Mid-Ocean was completed.  After some digging Nigel discovered that Saint George had a course laid out on the property several years before Emmet built his course on the same piece of land.


Suffolk County Country Club- There are articles describing this course as proposed with yardages.  This land eventually became Timber Point and was designed by Alison.


Bret

All true.


Newport CC has a receipt for paying Raynor for some service.


Bob Labbance included a piece about Raynor submitting a routing for Hollywood in a book he did.


Raynor went to the Bahamas for some hotel project as well. Not sure if a golf courses was involved.


And the of course the elusive Squires and Holden rolodex card that lists Rumson and apparently Sequoyah, a Santa Barbara Course, and a Westchester file that Raynor had submitted to Wallace Halsey’s Surveying office back in the day.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Literally just discovered and confirmed that Raynor produced three routings for New Haven (Conn.) Country Club. No plans have been found. The club history book had NHCC approaching Raynor and Ross but both turned them down because they were too busy. A seed salesman suggested the approach Willie Park, Jr., who the club went on to hire.

[Nigel Islam]

Literally just discovered and confirmed that Raynor produced three routings for New Haven (Conn.) Country Club. No plans have been found. The club history book had NHCC approaching Raynor and Ross but both turned them down because they were too busy. A seed salesman suggested the approach Willie Park, Jr., who the club went on to hire.

In The Nature Faker, Wayne and Tom detail MacDonald and possibly Raynor going to Hot Springs, Virginia and essentially saying the land in question was too severe for a golf course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Anthony two questions about the Elkridge Club.
Did Raynor use Tom Bendelow's routing?
Should you mention RTJ sr's revision of two (three?) holes as you did with
Hotchkiss School, Salisbury, Conn., 1925, nine holes
[/size](Subsequent renovation of three holes by Charles Banks.)?[/color]

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I don't believe Raynor used the existing routing.


The reason we mention the Hotchkiss course is because of the Banks connection.


My understanding at Elkridge is that two holes of the Raynor course were sacrificed to produce a practice area. Ault and Clark designed two new holes and those holes were subsequently redesigned by Brian Silva when he did restoration work there.


Anthony

[Rick Lane]

Re: Country Club of Fairfield......Tillinghast  altered the course in the mid 30's before RTJ in the 50's. 

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't believe Raynor used the existing routing.

Anthony

A few of the existing holes (and parts of others) were incorporated into the new 18 hole course.


Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Re: Country Club of Fairfield......Tillinghast  altered the course in the mid 30's before RTJ in the 50's.

Rick, that is correct. All that is confirmed, I believe, is that Tillinghast changed the Short Hole. I have his suggestions to the club when he was consulting for the PGA of America, but I don't know that the club has any proof Tillinghast's recommendations were implemented.


Anthony

[Rick Lane]

Whenever I play CCF (a few times a year), they tell me Tillie also did #6, the long cape par 4 with the canted green.   I'll see what I can dig up to verify that....

I did look over Phil Youngs notes on Tillie a while ago and saw a mid 30's trip to Fairfield by Tillie, 1936 I think....

[Nigel Islam]

Re: Country Club of Fairfield......Tillinghast  altered the course in the mid 30's before RTJ in the 50's.

Rick, that is correct. All that is confirmed, I believe, is that Tillinghast changed the Short Hole. I have his suggestions to the club when he was consulting for the PGA of America, but I don't know that the club has any proof Tillinghast's recommendations were implemented.


Anthony

Tillinghast changed 4 and 6, I believe. They certainly were changed from the Raynor routing prior to any Jones involvement.

[Rick Lane]

The write up (Ran's?) on CCF on this site says that too.    Do you guys know who decided to abandon what looks like a phenomenal Biarritz?   It breaks my heart every time I go there.....

[Sven Nilsen]

With respect to Rock Spring, I've read conflicting reports on whether work began on the course prior to Raynor's death.  There is a March 1926 report of Banks laying out the course.


In any case, there should probably be a notation on the list that this one was completed by Banks.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

The write up (Ran's?) on CCF on this site says that too.    Do you guys know who decided to abandon what looks like a phenomenal Biarritz?   It breaks my heart every time I go there.....

That was done in the 1960s

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tony,


When Banks returned to Hotchkiss during the highway construction he built one green (1st) at the end of an existing fairway, one fairway (9th), and removed some mounds at the side of one green (9th).


Did I miss something? 

[Tom_Doak]

I don't believe Raynor used the existing routing.

Anthony

A few of the existing holes (and parts of others) were incorporated into the new 18 hole course.


Sven

At what point does one need to credit a previous routing?


My current project in Ireland has three of four fairways and two green sites that are holdovers from the previous incarnation of tge course.  Should I be listing Joanne O'Haire as a co-designer?

[Sven Nilsen]

I don't believe Raynor used the existing routing.

Anthony

A few of the existing holes (and parts of others) were incorporated into the new 18 hole course.


Sven

At what point does one need to credit a previous routing?


My current project in Ireland has three of four fairways and two green sites that are holdovers from the previous incarnation of tge course.  Should I be listing Joanne O'Haire as a co-designer?

Depends on whether you're looking to lay out the full story of the history of a course or not. 


For most purposes, the golf world shortcuts the history of a course to a primary name.  For those of us who care about the entire picture, we might be inclined to want to note all parties involved at any point.[size=78%] [/size]

[Sven Nilsen]

You could extend the point Tom raised to a number of courses on this Raynor list.


For example, using the first course noted, Raynor didn't lay out the Lake course of the Augusta CC.  Although it was advertised in the late 1920's and 1930's as having been "perfected by" Raynor, I'm not sure if what he did rises to the level of deserving sole credit.


Without knowing any better, anyone looking at this list might assume that the entire course was the result of the efforts of Raynor.  He did rearrange the course and add grass greens, but simply focusing on his work ignores the contributions of Ogilvie, Harrison and Travis before him.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't believe Raynor used the existing routing.

Anthony

A few of the existing holes (and parts of others) were incorporated into the new 18 hole course.


Sven

At what point does one need to credit a previous routing?


My current project in Ireland has three of four fairways and two green sites that are holdovers from the previous incarnation of tge course.  Should I be listing Joanne O'Haire as a co-designer?

I will again quote the scientific journal publication criteria, whereas yes the bar is set high, however it will meet a high level of scrutiny as a result.
The ICMJE recommends that authorship be based on the following 4 criteria:

• Substantial contributions to the conception or design of the work; or the acquisition, analysis, or interpretation of data for the work; AND
• Drafting the work or revising it critically for important intellectual content; AND
• Final approval of the version to be published; AND
• Agreement to be accountable for all aspects of the work in ensuring that questions related to the accuracy or integrity of any part of the work are appropriately investigated and resolved.

Not perfect for our purposes, but gets the ball rolling in the right direction.The fourth point is assuming there is a peer review process where one can be questioned on their findings.  In this case it is probably not needed, except to possibly be questioned by people like us GCA geeks who may ask: "did you use Raynor's original routing in your design?" Basically someone is open to defending the integrity of their design.  Of course this is a hypothetical situation as there is no standard accepted, and certainly no formal peer review. 


I believe the only possible entity ASGCA to form a criteria to apply for their own recognition and serve their members with an objective criteria, which over time would be generally accepted as the norm/standard.  Outside of that it would take one of the bell cow (hold your breath....Golf Digest) rankings to raise the bar above PR and do something for standardization of the industry for attributing design credit.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jim: Good point.  I'll change it to Banks altered 1 3/17ths of holes? Does that sound right? 




The work at Country Club of Fairfield that involved removing the Biarritz was performed under the guidance of Robert Trent Jones, Sr. I have a copy of his plans that appears in the club's 75th anniversary book.




Anthony

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