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Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2019, 02:23:33 PM »
What a ridiculous article.  They put Bethpage Black at #3, and then say it was mostly the work of Joe Burbeck!  If you believe that then why list it for Tillie?


There is a huge difference between a designer's ten highest-rated courses and his best work, but the primary purpose of the piece seems to be to pay homage to GOLF DIGEST's rankings, not to Tillinghast.

MCirba

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2019, 03:40:10 PM »
Golf Digest foolishly seems determined to hold onto the false, disproven notion that Joe Burbeck and not Tilly designed Bethpage Black.


Several contemporaneous articles have been found after Ron Whitten wrote his Burbeck theory article citing Tillinghast yet a retraction has never been issued and GD instead just doubles down on an erroneous claim. 

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67089.0/prev_next,next.html#new
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 03:47:38 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2019, 04:56:41 PM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation. I think I’d rotate the black out and find room for Balto CC.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2019, 05:16:39 PM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation.


Has this already been discussed on here?

Greg Gilson

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2019, 06:56:07 PM »

At the risk of getting into the argument about the difference between "BEST" & "FAVOURITE"....


...I have played all of these and they all have much to recommend them. However , when I read the list I cannot put any of them in front of Somerset Hills. I have been there 4 times now & cannot wait to return. Much more "FUN" than most of the others with a wonderful variety of holes.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 03:43:35 AM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation. I think I’d rotate the black out and find room for Balto CC.


Not to mention that, even if Baltusrol WAS Tillie's work, it is very overrated at this point.  Even if their renovation is a great improvement, it still won't make it as good as the course's current ranking.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 07:04:24 AM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation. I think I’d rotate the black out and find room for Balto CC.


Not to mention that, even if Baltusrol WAS Tillie's work, it is very overrated at this point.  Even if their renovation is a great improvement, it still won't make it as good as the course's current ranking.


This list, with it's content and order, is indeed a joke and apparently done with the intention of regurgitating the already fatally-flawed GD rankings. The inclusion of both Baltusrol courses over the likes of an excellent Baltimore CC or even a masterful Fenway GC essentially proves it. The lack of even a mention for the likes of a Sands Point GC, Newport CC,  Alpine CC, or Paramount CC reveal how clueless GD and their rankings remain.


Undeniably, Baltusrol, both Lower and Upper, remain amongst the most overrated courses on anyones list. Most of this comes from the competitive history bias that seeps in and through the lesser-trained eye. In truth, neither in their current form deserve their current ranking,


That said, it is presumptuous and somewhat unfair to prejudge the upcoming renovation planned for both courses. Granted, the limitations of the terrain for the Lower Course probably preclude it from wholly reinventing itself and thus equaling or improving on it's already inflated ranking, Gil's plan for more creatively-routed Upper Course does retain that possibility.


As someone who has played nearly every significant Tilly dozens of times, am a partner in one, and has seen the Balty plans and walked the course with some of their governing members, it's only fair and reasonable to wait and see how it turns out.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 12:10:05 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2019, 07:57:41 AM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation. I think I’d rotate the black out and find room for Balto CC.


Not to mention that, even if Baltusrol WAS Tillie's work, it is very overrated at this point.  Even if their renovation is a great improvement, it still won't make it as good as the course's current ranking.


Granted, the limitations of the terrain for the Lower Course probably preclude it from wholly reinventing itself and thus equaling or improving on it's already inflated ranking, Gil's plan for more creatively-routed Upper Course does retain that possibility.


it's only fair and reasonable to wait and see how it turns out.


My statement was about the Lower course, in the context of Tommy's earlier comment, so, thanks for agreeing with me at the same time you were chastising me 😉


Championship history is just worth too much in some of these rankings systems, though that is just a matter of opinion, like all tge rest of it.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2019, 09:58:45 AM »
I’m not sure how much Tillinghast is left on the Lower course. I think very little. It is going to close for 18 months in yet another renovation. I think I’d rotate the black out and find room for Balto CC.


Not to mention that, even if Baltusrol WAS Tillie's work, it is very overrated at this point.  Even if their renovation is a great improvement, it still won't make it as good as the course's current ranking.


Granted, the limitations of the terrain for the Lower Course probably preclude it from wholly reinventing itself and thus equaling or improving on it's already inflated ranking, Gil's plan for more creatively-routed Upper Course does retain that possibility.


it's only fair and reasonable to wait and see how it turns out.


My statement was about the Lower course, in the context of Tommy's earlier comment, so, thanks for agreeing with me at the same time you were chastising me 😉


Championship history is just worth too much in some of these rankings systems, though that is just a matter of opinion, like all tge rest of it.


Happy to help with the clarification! ;)


I agree 1000 and 10 percent! Championship history shouldn't at be considered whatsoever IMO when measuring or ranking a course. let alone "worth too much."


As you rightfully note, all of it is a "matter of opinion," but comparing a Somerset Hills (with plenty of regional and limited USGA championship history) to a Baltusrol or Bethpage is like trying to compare a wonderful smaller Cezanne to a large Paul Klee...both exemplary pieces of art, but vastly different and uniquely different. Cheers!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jim Nugent

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 11:17:50 AM »
Steve Lapper and Tom Doak: what do you think is Tillie's best work?  Top ten, or something along those lines. 

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 11:53:37 AM »
Order withstanding, I would simply substitute Baltimore Five Farms CC and Fenway (or Newport CC) for both Baltusrol courses.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2019, 12:29:10 PM »
Steve Lapper and Tom Doak: what do you think is Tillie's best work?  Top ten, or something along those lines.


According to my Confidential Guide spreadsheet I've only seen 26 Tillinghast courses.



I'm pretty much on the same page as Steve. I'd put Winged Foot West, SFGC, Somerset Hills, Bethpage as his top 4, and then WF-East, Ridgewood, Quaker Ridge and Fenway (which I've only seen once) in the next group.  I have not seen Five Farms or Philly Cricket since they were restored, so I don't know if either has risen to the level of that second group.


Capital City CC in Tallahassee is his least known hidden gem, and Shawnee would crack the list (for historical reasons and for its unique setting) if it was ever properly restored.

Jim Hoak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 02:04:37 PM »
There's not any mention here of Tillinghast courses outside of the coasts--and in fact with the exception of SFGC, nothing outside of the East Coast.  Regional bias--or reality?

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2019, 02:50:40 PM »
There's not any mention here of Tillinghast courses outside of the coasts--and in fact with the exception of SFGC, nothing outside of the East Coast.  Regional bias--or reality?




Reality. Tilly spent most of his design time on the Eastern Seaboard.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 03:21:50 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2019, 03:49:16 PM »
@ Steve Lapper


I presume you have played the renovated course at Cricket. Is there any doubt that it belongs in the Top 10?





"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2019, 04:14:49 PM »
@ Steve Lapper


I presume you have played the renovated course at Cricket. Is there any doubt that it belongs in the Top 10?




IMO, not a single doubt Cricket Wissahickon belongs. I was very impressed with it. Keith Foster did an excellent job of restoring the AWT features. Just one man's opinion.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 05:26:07 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 04:23:38 PM »
There's not any mention here of Tillinghast courses outside of the coasts--and in fact with the exception of SFGC, nothing outside of the East Coast.  Regional bias--or reality?


I've seen Brook Hollow (pretty good), Brackenridge Park, and Tulsa CC, but none of those would challenge for his top ten.  I don't know how much time he spent on any of those sites.  He really did not build many courses in the midwest.  He did spend some time at Rochester in Minnesota (which we have just restored), because his daughter married a doctor at The Mayo Clinic and moved there.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2019, 07:25:39 PM »
Not sure the Upper doesn't get the love it deserves. I think it is excellent and would put it in my top ten for sure. The green complexes and terrain are nothing short of splendid. It will also go under a renovation after the Lower is finished. I've played about 20 of his courses and all the ones mentioned save Fenway.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Michael Pelliccione

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2019, 07:59:30 AM »
While all the courses mention in the top 10 are strong examples of Tillinghast finest work its hard to put anything above Somerset Hills.  The vast majority of Tillie work is long / hard championship style golf courses (WF, Balty, Ridgewood, etc..). 


Somerset Hills is in a class all of its own.   Hole by hole variety, front 9 v back 9, shot making required, arguably the best par 3s in the country and some of the greatest greens in golf.   


I'd put SFGC 2nd and Bethpage 3rd and then a large gap after that.   World class venues like Cricket and BCC should probably take the place of some of the courses mention on the top 10 list.  I'll keep those courses to myself  :P

MCirba

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2019, 09:14:17 AM »
Somerset Hills is in a class by itself, agreed.


But if you're looking for fun alternatives from Tillinghast that are much different than his just difficult "Championship" courses don't tell anyone but we're hiding them all here in Pennsylvania.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 09:51:01 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2019, 10:09:55 AM »
Somerset Hills is in a class by itself, agreed.


But if you're looking for fun alternatives from Tillinghast that are much different than his just difficult "Championship" courses don't tell anyone but we're hiding them all here in Pennsylvania.


Agreed wholeheartedly on Somerset Hills. It is my favorite Tilly by a good measure.

As for Tilly "fun alternatives," Philly fans are delusional as usual. ;) The NY-NJ-Metro area still has more of these gems than elsewhere.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

MCirba

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2019, 10:20:56 AM »
Steve,


I see your fun NJ/NY Tilly's and raise you Sunnehanna, Valley, Wyoming Valley, Irem, Fox Hill, Galen Hall,  Wanango, Bedford Springs (9), and Shawnee (the little that's left).


There's also Philly Cricket which is superb again  post-resto, and Williamsport and New Castle which I haven't played but understand are of a similar ilk as those above.   ;D
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 10:37:27 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2019, 04:02:35 PM »
Has anyone here played New Castle?  I always meant to stop and see it while driving from Michigan back to Connecticut, but I never had the right combination of weather and daylight to do it.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Golf Digest Ranks The 10 Best Tillinghast Courses
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2019, 04:26:27 PM »
There's not any mention here of Tillinghast courses outside of the coasts--and in fact with the exception of SFGC, nothing outside of the East Coast.  Regional bias--or reality?


There are two in Kansas City - Kansas City CC and Swope Park

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