Crans Sur Sierre and Ballesteros

[Ronald Montesano]

The Crans course that hosts the Omega Masters this week, was redesigned by Seve in the 1990s. The greens were torn up immediately after, and redesigned by him. Knowing what I know about Seve, and the absence of an agronomy degree, work in engineering, little time spent on a dozer or a back hoe...who helped him route the course, and who helped him redo the greens?


The announcers, usually of little help, surmise that Seve sculpted the putting surfaces to accommodate his love of chipping. It's a nice story, but is it fact?


As is my wont, I'll hang up and listen. Thanks for contributing.

[Adam Lawrence]

Seve had a design company called Trajectory; they did quite a bit of work around the world without ever really establishing themselves among the top rank of signature operations. A bit of information about the firm can be found here:


https://seveballesteros.com/en/seve/golf-course-design/


I know basically nothing about the five guys mentioned as his associates.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ronald,


Seve didn't alter the routing and really only did a redesign of the greens and bunkers. The bunkers he just made enourmous and  the work he did on the greens was to put it bluntly terrible with them all having a horrible grip running between the putting surface and the apron. It did not last long in this format and was quietly altered with no comment to remove the worst of the problems. Crans-Montana is an okay course but there are better courses in the area.


The only other Seve courses I have played is one he did here in the UK who's name escapes me (Mr. Carlton?) and one in the south of France called Pont Royal which I really liked. Good routing, variety of holes and challenges and plenty of fun shots.


Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Ronald,


Seve didn't alter the routing and really only did a redesign of the greens and bunkers. The bunkers he just made enourmous and  the work he did on the greens was to put it bluntly terrible with them all having a horrible grip running between the putting surface and the apron. It did not last long in this format and was quietly altered with no comment to remove the worst of the problems. Crans-Montana is an okay course but there are better courses in the area.


The only other Seve courses I have played is one he did here in the UK who's name escapes me (Mr. Carlton?)

Jon

Jon -- The Shire

[Ally Mcintosh]

The Crans course that hosts the Omega Masters this week, was redesigned by Seve in the 1990s. The greens were torn up immediately after, and redesigned by him. Knowing what I know about Seve, and the absence of an agronomy degree, work in engineering, little time spent on a dozer or a back hoe...who helped him route the course, and who helped him redo the greens?


The announcers, usually of little help, surmise that Seve sculpted the putting surfaces to accommodate his love of chipping. It's a nice story, but is it fact?


As is my wont, I'll hang up and listen. Thanks for contributing.

Ro-Mo,


Can I just say that Seve’s absence of knowledge of engineering, agronomy or use of an excavator should have little to nothing to do with how well he can route a course.


Sure, routing a course relies heavily on being able to see the hole and understand the best way to move earth around. But those things aren’t related to the above, even though they occasionally come hand-in-hand.

[Marty Bonnar]

Ronald,


Seve didn't alter the routing and really only did a redesign of the greens and bunkers. The bunkers he just made enourmous and  the work he did on the greens was to put it bluntly terrible with them all having a horrible grip running between the putting surface and the apron. It did not last long in this format and was quietly altered with no comment to remove the worst of the problems. Crans-Montana is an okay course but there are better courses in the area.


The only other Seve courses I have played is one he did here in the UK who's name escapes me (Mr. Carlton?)

Jon

Jon -- The Shire

And Westerwood (with Dave Thomas)
F.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ronald,


Seve didn't alter the routing and really only did a redesign of the greens and bunkers. The bunkers he just made enourmous and  the work he did on the greens was to put it bluntly terrible with them all having a horrible grip running between the putting surface and the apron. It did not last long in this format and was quietly altered with no comment to remove the worst of the problems. Crans-Montana is an okay course but there are better courses in the area.


The only other Seve courses I have played is one he did here in the UK who's name escapes me (Mr. Carlton?)

Jon

Jon -- The Shire

Eh up tha's rite Adam but not about the course of course.

And Westerwood (with Dave Thomas)
F.

That's the one Marty.

[Adam Lawrence]

I went to Westerwood about ten or eleven years ago when Jonathan Gaunt was doing some renovation work. It was the wettest site I've ever seen. Went round wearing wellies, and they almost weren't long enough, the muck was so deep

[Ronald Montesano]

What is a grip? I've not heard that term, in relation to greens.

[Jon Wiggett]

What is a grip? I've not heard that term, in relation to greens.

Sorry Ronald,


it is a small drainage slit usually a few inches wide, sometimes open often filled with gravel.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played 17 at Valderrama after Seve changed it. It was a scary third shot to be sure to a very sloped green. I seem to remember Tiger having trouble there at the Ryder Cup.

[Mike_Clayton]

It was a lousy - and easy - course before Seve started and whilst I never played his version no one had anything good to say about it. There were some unfixable holes - 5,6,7, (the one with the famous view) and 12 were the worst of them - but if anyone of the best architects in the world was given a free hit and an unlimited budget maybe it could have been a 4.
If it was a good course, it'd be one of the best tournaments in golf.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mike,


it is what it is. They ski over it in the winter so what do you expect!!! Clearly the tournament is there because of money not the quality of the course though there really was very little of note in Switzerland from a GCA POV 30 years ago.


Jon

[Mike_Clayton]

Jon,


Absolutely. It was the course best demonstrating the difference between pros who simply played for money  - the ones who'd play down the motorway for a dollar (or a million) - versus the much smaller group who thought the quality of the course important.
It is a beautiful town and it was a nice week but give me Chantilly or Portmarnock any day - for half the money.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Jeff Howes did The Heritage in Ireland with him so he may have used local guys on other jobs also.

[Niall C]

Re Westerwood - the story goes Seve was flown in for the grand opening and arrived at site in a helicopter. Upon disembarking from the helicopter his first words were "Who designed this piece of s**t ?". Ironically they lost one of the best holes when they re-did the routing. Couldn't be helped as they had a to lose a par 4 where you weren't allowed to hit more than a 5 iron from the tee because of housing on either side. I played the revamped course last year with the Gaunt holes now in play and it was OK but heavy going as Adam suggests.

Seve also put his name to a few courses on the Costa Del Sol and I've played a couple. From what I've seen, and as a rough rule of thumb, any course with his name on it is best avoided if you don't like mickey mouse golf.

Niall 

[Robin_Hiseman]

Also re Westerwood:


Before Jonathan Gaunt came along I also did a design for the alteration of Westerwood. We had broadly similar holes on the new land at the bottom of the site, but a different solution for tying up the holes inside the site. I was commissioned by the Scottish National Golf Centre, who had an interest in the place at the time. They were the only client I had who didn't pay their bill!


Holes 10-12 of the original routing were abandoned, partly in response to complaints from neighbours whose houses were getting pelted. Rather than fix the holes, they shut them down, so the homes with a golf course view now have a nice view of scrubland.


The Seve (Dave Thomas) course was big news when it opened in the late 80's. I played it with my father before it officially opened and it was quite the course at the time. Very exciting for that part of the world. As hard as 9" Nails. I've still got the card, photos  and vivid memories of the day.


It decayed dramatically over the years and i'm a bit surprised it hasn't folded. The Gaunt holes down the bottom have helped, but it is the boggiest land you'll ever see. I'm sure they did sow proper grasses in the rough, but it's pretty much all rushes now. I played it last about 5 years ago and will admit to enjoying the new layout, although the 12th and 13th are both truly bizarre holes, with the latter being a short par 3 playing into the green of an abandoned hole, but from right angles to the original line of play.


I've got to say though that i had the best restaurant meal of my life in the hotel the one time i stayed there. Just the most delicious beef with a red wine reduction. It was amazing.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Re Westerwood - the story goes Seve was flown in for the grand opening and arrived at site in a helicopter. Upon disembarking from the helicopter his first words were "Who designed this piece of s**t ?". Ironically they lost one of the best holes when they re-did the routing. Couldn't be helped as they had a to lose a par 4 where you weren't allowed to hit more than a 5 iron from the tee because of housing on either side. I played the revamped course last year with the Gaunt holes now in play and it was OK but heavy going as Adam suggests.

Seve also put his name to a few courses on the Costa Del Sol and I've played a couple. From what I've seen, and as a rough rule of thumb, any course with his name on it is best avoided if you don't like mickey mouse golf.

Niall 

your being too kind Niall. Someone once said "If golf course architects had handicaps Seve would have been mid 20s".  As far as I am aware one of the Dyes did San Roque New which I think is good and much better than the Old course. Seve is 'linked to the design' I was told he only just put one tee (the 4th). It is a pretty good hole off the normal tee.

[Niall C]

Robin


As a matter of interest, what was your design solution for the hole playing through the houses ? From what I recall the two preceding holes comprising a par 4 playing down the hill to a green across a burn followed by a nice enough par 3 were two of the better holes, it was just the one that followed that caused the problems.


Adrian


Yes, I suspect I am being kind. I recall one of his holes in Spain that comprised a downhill tee shot of c.180 yards to a 90 degree dogleg left followed by an uphill shot of over 200 yards. In truth I was under the impression he got a non-golfing engineer to do the design and he simply put his name to it.


Niall

[Robin_Hiseman]

Niall: Those three holes 10-12, were always going to be abandoned, so my design solution omitted them all. I'd have to find my old files to remind myself of how mine differs to Jonathan's.


Back on Crans, our office, through our designer Dave Sampson, is gradually working through the course, ironing out the kinks and glitches. Not a bad place to go for a site visit.