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Jason Topp

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The courses that divide us
« on: August 27, 2019, 04:06:19 PM »
I find viewpoints on this discussion group to be relatively consistent.  I was trying to think of those that generate significant splits of opinion.  Here is what I have:


Tobacco Road - all would agree it is an artistic achievement but is the golf compelling?  I see both sides to this one.  I think the par 5's are very interesting but the par 3's get repetitive and the par fours play a bit like target golf.


Erin Hills - all agree the walk is long but are the holes good?  My impression from one round is that they are very good.  Others find them repetitive, playing from high teeing ground down to a fairway back to a high green.  Donald Ross used the same approach. 


Pebble Beach - are the inland holes good or bad?  My one visit is insufficient to form a strong opinion.


Spring Hill - The local Minnesota GCA types are pretty negative.  National visitors seem to like the place.   I am local.


TPC Sawgrass - punishing brute or strategic masterpiece?  I am on the strategic masterpiece side of this one although its uniqueness has been diminished by several additional courses built from the same mold. 


Kiawah Ocean - I loved it but played from short tees in pleasant weather over 3 days.  My suspicion is that those that dislike it played a longer course in tougher weather.


Sweeten's Cove - I have never played.  I have heard mostly positive but some negative.   


What others are out there and where do you stand on them?
 


corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 04:18:56 PM »



Aren't most of the course discussed on this site (at least in the United States) in the 90th percentile as far as courses go?  Not sure the extent to which that means many on here are "divided". 


I can certainly participate in a debate of "what I like better" but do recognize that we are still talking elite courses.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 04:25:43 PM »
I can think of one... Torrey Pines South.

Some think its great 8 or 9, while others give it a Doak 2 or 3....

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 04:55:03 PM »
Whistling Straits


Butler National


Kingsley Club


Valhalla


Cape Kidnappers


Chambers Bay


The Belfry (Brabazon)


Celtic Manor


Trump Flabberdeen


Trump Douchebag (Doonbeg... ;D


European Club


Old Head








Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 05:07:58 PM »
Ian,

I'm generally curious.  I hadn't heard the criticism of Cape Kidnappers or Kingley Club (except for maybe the 9th hole).  Did i miss it?

P.S.  Maybe add Arcadia Bluffs and dare I say Harbour Town?

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 05:11:06 PM »
Ian,


Good list, but frankly I’ve never heard au negative comment on GCA about Kingsley? How is it polarizing?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 05:52:25 PM »
Pete,
I think non-GCA types thing KC is a bit tricked up and unfair. I hear bifurcated opinions of either love or hate.
Perhaps not here, tho.


As for CK...to me, it falls into the Old Head category: amazing piece of property but too bad they built THAT there.
Caveat: never played it but my best friend has repeatedly and I trust his view.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 05:55:07 PM »
Castle Course at St. Andrews
Every course Trump owns or runs
(Almost) every Robert T Jones course
Lots of Fazio courses

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 09:07:49 PM »
Among the courses I have played that are discussed regularly:


Castle Stuart
Kingsbarns
Kapulua Plantation


The weight of opinion is very positive, but there are many/some/few of us who find one or more overrated.


Oh, and the Dress Code at Elie seemed a divisive issue that led to division about the quality of the course.


Ira

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 10:41:29 PM »
Ian,

I'm generally curious.  I hadn't heard the criticism of Cape Kidnappers or Kingley Club (except for maybe the 9th hole).  Did i miss it?

P.S.  Maybe add Arcadia Bluffs and dare I say Harbour Town?


I'll take a stab at why Cape Kidnappers might belong on this list: There is no denying the excellence of the golf holes and the magnificence of the site. But I was surprised to see bent grass fairways and bluegrass rough. I guess I was expecting a linksy site.

Conley Hurst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 10:49:01 PM »
It seems like some of Gil Hanse's work divides opinion. Especially his renovations at "championship" courses like Merion, Winged Foot, etc.


I bet there are many Fazio and Nicklaus courses that would generate diverse opinions.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 09:47:15 AM »
Mammoth Dunes would be a good one.
H.P.S.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 10:01:46 AM »
The Quarry at LaQuinta, Madison Club, Medinah
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 10:28:52 AM »
Don't hide behind lists.  Let me know where you stand on the courses you list.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 10:49:34 AM »
If more of you ever played Ballyhack, Roanoke, VA, it would be on the list.  Every shot is a potential card recker, w/ no recovery options & lots of time looking for balls.
Visually stunning.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 11:21:33 AM »

Carl


I don't know how long it has been since you last played Ballyhack but your assessment is no longer accurate. The maintenance practices across the past few years has made the course much less penal. Most of the gnarly stuff around the bunkers has been replaced by normal rough so that you are not begging to find the ball in the bunker as opposed to losing your ball within a few yards of one. While there are still areas of native outside of the playing corridors they are not nearly as ubiquitous or as penal as they were in the past. The last two years when I have been down there I think the course has played superbly. I have no doubt that some of the original vision has been lost by increasing the playability and reducing the penal nature.





If more of you ever played Ballyhack, Roanoke, VA, it would be on the list.  Every shot is a potential card recker, w/ no recovery options & lots of time looking for balls.
Visually stunning.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 11:34:14 AM »
If more of you ever played Ballyhack, Roanoke, VA, it would be on the list.  Every shot is a potential card recker, w/ no recovery options & lots of time looking for balls.
Visually stunning.


I almost included Ballyhack on the list.  The pictures looked incredibly brutal to me but my experience playing the course was very positive.  I also found the holes some of the most creative I have ever played.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »
Don't hide behind lists.  Let me know where you stand on the courses you list.


I think Mammoth Dunes is pure eye candy. It has a decent set of par-3's, but the negatives outweigh the positives. The fairways are so wide you would think there would be strategic interest in going a certain direction, but there is not. And the putting surfaces were built with zero imagination.
H.P.S.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2019, 12:29:35 PM »
I suspect that Greywalls is another love it or hate it course. I loved it, as did my wife. The front nine is as rugged of terrain as you’ll ever see on a golf course. As I recall, also many blind shots. it is miraculous that a course was able to be built on such property.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:05:06 PM by Cliff Hamm »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 12:48:30 PM »
In general Jim Engh courses often have same effect in terms of love/hate kind of thing...

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2019, 12:53:26 PM »
In general Jim Engh courses often have same effect in terms of love/hate kind of thing...


I've played a good handful of Engh courses around CO and I like them.  I find a few holes here and there to be brutal (there's a couple at Fossil Trace, a nutty long par three at Pradera, etc.), but I generally think it's avant-garde and fun.


Engh does seem to be very forgiving to shots that are just offline, but very penal to those way off-line.  Makes for very low scores for good players, and very high scores for high-handicap players.  That's been my experience.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2019, 01:03:15 PM »
Don't hide behind lists.  Let me know where you stand on the courses you list.


Let the games begin!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2019, 01:04:10 PM »
The Quarry at LaQuinta, Madison Club, Medinah
The Quarry at LaQuinta is obviously known for it's Augusta like conditioning and as a in his prime Fazio has all the bells and whistles for beauty.  They maintain it impeccably, which brings critics with it. They even overseed in the summer for the odd few members who play in the heat. Wide fairways and not many midline hazards or deep bunkers so very gettable course. I like the course as I appreciate a course that doesn't apologize for trying to do something the best that it possibly can and in this case it is green, green, green conditioning.  The caddies having to pick up all the divots into their bibs puts it in the negative for some, but I respect them for trying to do something well and IMO they do it.

The Madison Club is obscenely expensive and has the rich and famous during the winter time there. IMO an underrated course as a Fazio for not many people see it. I think the greens have more imagination than The Quarry. The price of 350k initiation and 3k a month dues turns most off and I certainly know I will never be anything but a guest there as a result.

Medinah is an iconic course for me as I have the Chicago bias and embrace it.  I think it is a very difficult course for amateurs, which before a couple weeks ago I wouldn't have had to denote just for amateurs (but the pros tore it up). I respect the stern test of long, tree lined par 4's and over the water long iron/hybrid par 3's.  Not alot of variety there is the criticism and I get that, but it is so hard for amateurs IMO as with the distance you have for approaches you can't get long irons out of that rough especially with tree overhang.  I respect the test, but understand the criticism.  I'd like them to move one of the par 3's up as far as they can and continue to take down another couple thousand trees.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2019, 01:37:01 PM »
Don't hide behind lists.  Let me know where you stand on the courses you list.


I think Mammoth Dunes is pure eye candy. It has a decent set of par-3's, but the negatives outweigh the positives. The fairways are so wide you would think there would be strategic interest in going a certain direction, but there is not. And the putting surfaces were built with zero imagination.


Pat, I respectfully disagree and I only need to go to the first three holes to make my point.


Shot angle and choice of which side of FW to hit means everything. Plus, there are “speed slots” galore where, if you hit them, you get a 25-40 yard advantage.


Hole 1. Hit speed slot on high right hill of FW and ball releases down to where the green is just open for you with a wedge in your hand, take the low road left and you have 2-3 more clubs in.


Hole 2. Take safe route to left of FW and your second shot is blind. Go down the right side and the green opens up
To where you can see the flag.


Hole 3. Take aggressive line down left side and you can reach in two on par 5 and green opens up. Take Safer route right still allows it but you need to crank some lumber to get there and must hit over some junk with an angle that demands a cut.


See what i mean...?


There is always a preferred line that, if taken with an element of risk, yields rewards.
8th Hole great example of a power slot on left side.

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The courses that divide us
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2019, 01:41:37 PM »
A few others that I've noticed seem to always generate divided opinions:


(these are dependent on what the person giving the opinion values)
Olympic' Lake course
Muirfield Village
Baltusrol Lower course


(these are dependent on the weather at the time the person played them)
Kiawah Ocean Course
Whistling Straights
Portmarnock
Falkenstein


(these are depending on the skill of the person playing them)
Carnoustie
Winged Foot West
EastHo
Western Gailes


(these seem to have no rhyme or reason for how people will feel)
European Club
TPC Sawgrass
Bandon Trails




Michael











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