[Bernie Bell]

V - I like caddies, have had more good than bad, and I'm happy to oblige when I'm a guest of my muckety friends.  And I tip well out of guilt for the extra raking that's often involved behind me.  But if the majority or even a steady minority of members freely chose caddies, clubs wouldn't need to mandate them.  Econ 101.  I'm sure there are some old line clubs with enough members who want and can easily afford regular caddies that voluntary programs would survive and coercion would not be required.  But I doubt there would be many.  And the number will shrink as the "contingent" you speak of dies off, and with it what I see as the companion attitude that push carts are gauche . . . or whatever ridiculous reasons are given for their prohibition at the muckety clubs.

[Mike Sweeney]

At Ballybunion in June, we took two Forecaddies, and we carried our own bags on on The Old (older Forecaddie) and one on The Cashen (younger Forecaddie). They were great in different ways and they were Members of Ballybunion and we were guest of a separate Member that we played with. It is a fantastic way to play golf as everyone is "invested" in the day. They found balls, had the Irish quips, loved the place, and appreciated the insanity of us paying green fees that are crazy.


As a former caddie that was mainly a bag carrier but did caddie in one of the early Senior PGA events at Newport CC, we here in the USA have once again overdone it, again. Greenspeeds, expensive caddies, fancy clubhouses, Merion has to be 7000+ yards.... let's not blame the caddies. It's the golfers.

[V. Kmetz]

BB....


What would they choose them from; what extant pool?  Or do you expect a pool of caddies to hang around for whoever of the  contingent shows two or three days a week?  Dream on... they'll be down the road to a fuller, fatter club in no time...


And how will they choose them...by who's good or bad...who'll work for less/more?  You want a bid war to tun into an argument on the tee at premium times?


You use the pejorative term coercion...if that;s apt, then my lord, the corecive aspects of all club life big and small!...the dining minimums, the bag storage (whether you use it or not)...the locker (whether you use it or not)...the winter fund (whether you like it or not)...charity day (whether you give privately or not) the special assessments and dues increases (whether you agree with them or not)....there must be two dozen items.


However BB, the true disconnect here is many (maybe not you?)on this board not understanding that there are in about 5 metro areas and 20 resort areas an enormous concentration of wealthy, wealthy,wealthy people that can support burning money in a fireplace for eons to come who "support" this... most of this people on the board are just visiting this land to look at a Biarritz... most of the people in these clubs really don't give a ratsass what the charted economic labor-to-cost-opportunity is or isn't...they want to be treated well and they want to know which way the putt breaks... they want their ball found and their clubs cared for and put on the rack when the round is over because they are playing Shinnecock next week, where they hope they get the caddie they had last time.


The repeated instigation that these "Caddie" threads hold is so silly and meaningless... nobody cares, it has nothing to do with architecture and little to do the GCA industry and if you want to play WF or PV or anywhere near... above, below or in between Ran's 147, you're prolly taking a caddie...mandated.

[Michael Whitaker]

V. Kmetz - you are correct... like most lifestyle topics in this country, everything comes down to the “haves” vs the “have-nots.”

I have a friend who is a member of a Long Island club that requires caddies. My friend plays at least twice a week, more often when possible. He told me once he spent over $12,000 one year on caddy fees. 

Not many people can afford that.

It reminds me of the old adage:  “If you have to ask the price you can’t afford it.”

[corey miller]

Wait a second Michael.....FWIW, and v Kmetz disputed this, more than a few private clubs in this area are differentiating themselves by NOT mandating caddies thus attempting to make the private club "experience"  more affordable.


That said, V Kmetz knows all about the inner workings of these clubs because he caddies there and I am sure he gets valuable and honest first hand knowledge of how his clients/members view the experience and the value proposition.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I get the caddy experience.
I learned the game as a caddy.
I play at a “caddy club”.
Have played a ton at hi-end pay to play courses.


Net/net (for me): with improved Trolleys, range finders, yardage books and now that you can leave the pin in, I think the need for caddies is less every year.


Ok, I get it, you go to scotland, play TOC or Trump Flabberdeen and you want the legit experience, so a local caddy points you where to hit and talks you into your 3 wood over your driver...fine.


Sure, at Long Island clubs and  Cypress/Seminole/Pine Valley it will always be a part of the bespoke experience.
But for 98% of the rounds out there, it adds expense, in some cases adds time and according to many above stops short of adding real value.


Tough business model to get behind...

[Sean_A]

of all the things to worry about, caddies is the least important because they are easily avoided.  It doesn't matter who likes or dislikes caddies and why.  Caddies add to the tapestry of golf and as a whole this is good. 

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 




It"s a special treat for me to walk and not have to carry a bag or jockey a cart. Enjoy it when you can!

[V. Kmetz]

Wait a second Michael.....FWIW, and v Kmetz disputed this, more than a few private clubs in this area are differentiating themselves by NOT mandating caddies thus attempting to make the private club "experience"  more affordable.

name them... because you state "more than a few," I'm expecting at least four names...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Wait a second Michael.....FWIW, and v Kmetz disputed this, more than a few private clubs in this area are differentiating themselves by NOT mandating caddies thus attempting to make the private club "experience"  more affordable.

name them... because you state "more than a few," I'm expecting at least four names...

I don’t know about the specific area you are discussing, but it is happening. Maybe not at the very top tier clubs, but at some of the others, it has already taken place....at least here in Chicago - a golfing area steeped in tradition and with no shortage of venues big or small, traditional or new, elite or welcoming.


There are many reasons for it and that could be its own thread. But, it IS happening.
You’d be surprised to hear some of the names that have hosted majors both in the modern day and in “the way back machine”.

[corey miller]

V Kmetz


I really don't care what you "expect" and how you choose to define "more than a few" but it is a fact.  Please check the blast emails, and targeted social media advertisements floating around golfers in the NYC metro area.


I know, you are fortunate to work at places with ultra rich members who can afford to spend $125 a round to support a mandatory caddie program but not all clubs are like that. 


That said, were you to offer your fantasy football handicap service at a few of these clubs it might make the perceived value proposition for some of the members more appealing.

[David_Elvins]

As someone whose wife is morally and financially opposed to getting a nanny, a gardener and a butler, to be able to go out to golf for an afternoon and get the level of servitude that I deserve, is essential for my wellbeing. 

[Kalen Braley]

As someone whose wife is morally and financially opposed to getting a nanny, a gardener and a butler, to be able to go out to golf for an afternoon and get the level of servitude that I deserve, is essential for my wellbeing.

I don't even know how to process this..does your wife know how much a caddy costs?  And does she know you're into mandatory servitude?  And to think.. how anyone endures a round without a full service caddy? The tragedy is heart breaking.

[Ian Mackenzie]

As someone whose wife is morally and financially opposed to getting a nanny, a gardener and a butler, to be able to go out to golf for an afternoon and get the level of servitude that I deserve, is essential for my wellbeing.

I don't even know how to process this..does your wife know how much a caddy costs?  And does she know you're into mandatory servitude?  And to think.. how anyone endures a round without a full service caddy? The tragedy is heart breaking.

Kalen, that may be a thing of the past.


If it makes you feel any...uh...better, I was once at a pretty raucous Chicago Lithographers Club golf outing in the late 80’s when I was fairly green. Took over the whole course, tons of booze, lots of gambling, tee games. And, yes, I think there were definitely some “full service” caddies there, too...

[Kyle Harris]

Do you guys complain this much every time the bill comes at a restaurant? Good Lord.

If I'm forced to pay for something I didn't want.


Yes.

[SL_Solow]

Ian,  I am not sure about your reference to caddy programs in the Chicago area.  As you know the model here is quite different as the bulk of the caddies are high school and college students with a lesser amount of full time professionals.  It has been a long time since many clubs required the use of a caddy.  But with the help of the WGA and the Evans Scholar program, the caddy culture remains strong.  At our club about half the rounds are played with caddies and when school starts people are unhappy as availability drops.

[Joe Leenheer]

The problem with caddies (when you are a guest or visitor) is you hire someone you don't get to interview.


I've learned to expect a hamburger at the price of a steak.  Sometimes you get the steak, sometimes the burger.


I've been on all sides of this topic.  The consumer, the caddie, and the trainer. 


I've had caddies make the day and take a bit away from it, but I never let them ruin it. 


Ultimately, it's "CPR" that determines the experience....caddie-player relationship (credit to Canterbury GC for that acronym). If you an make effort to foster the relationship from the get go, set expectations before the round, and be honest and early with feedback then your experience will likely be pleasant.


It takes two to tango. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Ian,  I am not sure about your reference to caddy programs in the Chicago area.  As you know the model here is quite different as the bulk of the caddies are high school and college students with a lesser amount of full time professionals.  It has been a long time since many clubs required the use of a caddy.  But with the help of the WGA and the Evans Scholar program, the caddy culture remains strong.  At our club about half the rounds are played with caddies and when school starts people are unhappy as availability drops.

SS,


That is just a great post. Goat Hill in California has this same type of culture and it feeds the game with future players. Here is Jasmine, my caddie from my visit this summer and she had an awesome swing when we went to the range later after my round:


https://www.instagram.com/p/BzhbrSOFDq2/

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,  I am not sure about your reference to caddy programs in the Chicago area.  As you know the model here is quite different as the bulk of the caddies are high school and college students with a lesser amount of full time professionals.  It has been a long time since many clubs required the use of a caddy.  But with the help of the WGA and the Evans Scholar program, the caddy culture remains strong.  At our club about half the rounds are played with caddies and when school starts people are unhappy as availability drops.

Shel,
I agree with you.
You know where I play. It’s Chick Evans Home course!


 We also used to have a a significant number of “veterans” who would come up from Mexico on 4/15 until about 10/15. That has slowed significantly.


My point, however, is more related to the number of clubs that have new policies that do not require members to take caddies at all. I believe that trend will continue. Maybe not at all clubs, but at some.

[Tim Martin]

The problem with caddies (when you are a guest or visitor) is you hire someone you don't get to interview.


I've learned to expect a hamburger at the price of a steak.  Sometimes you get the steak, sometimes the burger.


I've been on all sides of this topic.  The consumer, the caddie, and the trainer. 


I've had caddies make the day and take a bit away from it, but I never let them ruin it. 


Ultimately, it's "CPR" that determines the experience....caddie-player relationship (credit to Canterbury GC for that acronym). If you an make effort to foster the relationship from the get go, set expectations before the round, and be honest and early with feedback then your experience will likely be pleasant.


It takes two to tango. 

Joe-To have someone like Mike Kiely at Canterbury run your caddie yard/program is a dream come true. Anyone that learned the game under Mike’s tutelage is better for it today.

[Rick Lane]

At my Met area club we have arrived at a place over the last ten years or so, where we foster a pretty good caddie program, have local scholarships and Evans Scholars, and a good mix of HS/College kids and well as 30-50 year old caddies, most of whom are doing it as a "weekend job" to go with their day job.  We don't mandate the use of caddies, or even carts or forecaddies, but our club culture for weekend mornings is that its "strongly encouraged that the members support the caddie program".  That said, about 11 percent of our weekend morning rounds people walk and carry. Another 30% or so take a cart. We are a very busy club (>22k rounds), so there are plenty of caddie rounds to support a lot of caddies.
 During the week,  there are many more walkers and cart users, but caddies are still available at all times.   We use the foretees system to schedule caddie loops, so that they don't have to hang around hoping for a loop.   They can go online and "take" a loop, or be assigned one. 
Lastly, we have A, B and C caddies.....Members/guests can request whatever they want, "A" being a very experienced caddie, likely wants two bags, and will interact with you as much as you want, or not, and will be very knowledgeable and efficient and frankly is part of our Club family in their relationships with the members.     "C" being a young bag toter who still is learning. 
Al of this seems to work pretty well..... 

[corey miller]

As a player having a mandated caddie at >$100 a bag (double bag) what type of "expectations" should I be expected to discuss with a caddie on the first tee?


My spiel is that I tell them I don't care what they do with the club covers and then on the first green I tell them I will only ask for a read occasionally (even as a visitor) and in the first bunker I tell them I will rake it if it is quicker...


Should a caddie also be telling me what he/she does for me or am I supposed to ask that they actually watch the ball and perhaps fore-caddie responsibly and maybe even clean a ball from time to time?

[Kalen Braley]

I really like what Ricks club is doing with the tiered caddy system.  Assuming it has tiered pricing as well, it makes sense when compared to other industries where experienced people at various levels have different compensation.

[John Kavanaugh]

Problem with me is that I've got a finite amount of spendable nice in my personality bottle. Four hours with a caddie can leave me dry for more important relationships.

[Joe Leenheer]

The problem with caddies (when you are a guest or visitor) is you hire someone you don't get to interview.


I've learned to expect a hamburger at the price of a steak.  Sometimes you get the steak, sometimes the burger.


I've been on all sides of this topic.  The consumer, the caddie, and the trainer. 


I've had caddies make the day and take a bit away from it, but I never let them ruin it. 


Ultimately, it's "CPR" that determines the experience....caddie-player relationship (credit to Canterbury GC for that acronym). If you an make effort to foster the relationship from the get go, set expectations before the round, and be honest and early with feedback then your experience will likely be pleasant.


It takes two to tango. 

Joe-To have someone like Mike Kiely at Canterbury run your caddie yard/program is a dream come true. Anyone that learned the game under Mike’s tutelage is better for it today.

Mr. Kiely is a legend....I was actually present when he was inducted into the Caddie HOF!
 
"Pay 'em whatever you think they deserve...my caddies are all "A" caddies or they wouldn't be here." - M. Kiely

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