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Ben Hollerbach

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Great golf holes that could not be built today
« on: August 21, 2019, 04:05:59 PM »
Whether its for liability, environmental, or other reasons, what great holes from yesterday could not / would not be built in today's climate?

What can we learn from these holes that could be applied to modern course construction?

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2019, 05:24:02 PM »
I’d like to think that any hole on a links course could be built today by someone brave enough. So I don’t buy the liability argument. Hope I don’t end up sounding foolish there.


There’s a bunch of holes, even courses that wouldn’t get an environmental pass to be built today.


So I reckon links courses aren’t good examples. Be interested to hear some of the specifics about American great holes.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2019, 05:36:06 PM »
The 18th at Harbour Town Golf Links. The fairway is mostly filled wetlands... no way it could be built today!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

David_Tepper

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2019, 05:59:47 PM »
The Road Hole?

Ira Fishman

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2019, 06:25:33 PM »
The Road Hole?


Really hard to top that one even though I have only walked it. But how about Number 16 at Cypress Point?


Ira

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2019, 09:23:50 PM »
Environmental permits are the main issue here - not design ideas.


The 13th at The Dunes in Myrtle Beach is just like the 18th at Harbour Town - the fairway runs through what was clearly a wetland by modern standards.  Same for many holes at Sea Island.


None of the holes on the California coast would be permitted today, which is as much about politics as anything.


Holes along streams, as at Merion and Augusta, would be iffy depending on state regulations for clearing and setbacks.




Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2019, 07:35:18 AM »
When it comes to an architect being brave and building iffy holes that may put players in risk, is there anything they can do to mitigate their liability? I'd imagine nearly all architects would not want to open themselves up to too much risk and/or carry the necessary insurance to cover those instances.

Much like Harbour Town, could Sawgrass be built today?

Tom, on the Fried Egg  you mentioned that in Ireland it is now very difficult to build on coastal land that wasn't already a golf course. Is this the same in places like California? Could someone take an average seaside course there and rebuild it? For that matter, would the same be applicable for courses with creeks that meander through the property very close to play? Since it's a course today, could the course be redesigned and keep the same Creek interaction?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 07:38:09 AM by Ben Hollerbach »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2019, 11:40:27 AM »
I have built quite a few iffy holes (hitting over the previous green, blind shots, etc) and not had any problem with them.  Golfers aren't as stupid as they are made out to be.  You just have to have a client who accepts the risks of the situation and those are harder to find.


Renovations are a grey area for permits and some clubs get away with things a new build could not.  However on a major renovation, you're not going to get away with moving three greens close to a stream (except in Montana where there are no mandated setbacks).  In the end it is the facility's responsibility to ensure they are staying within the law.











Kalen Braley

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2019, 12:02:15 PM »
Tom,


Interesting you mention Montana,  RCCC was the first thing that came to mind given 8 and 17 being so close to waters edge...


P.S.  I always thought of Oregon as being very progression/restrictive as well, but given the relative young age of Bandon resort, they let that happen.  Or perhaps Oregon is just the Portland area....and everything else!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2019, 01:06:24 PM »
Kalen:


There were setbacks from creeks at Bandon Dunes ... but the setback from the ocean is only partway up the cliff face as it lays back.


Montana laws were all written to facilitate logging.  There could be a couple of other states that have no setback requirements, but none of the ones where I have worked.

Sean_A

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2019, 02:24:58 PM »
I think of mostly road holes because most of the time on course danger can be mitigated with tree removal or crafty signaling for blind shots.  The 8th at Seacroft is a great example, yet it is exactly the threat of OOB which makes the hole.  I wonder if it is possible for the club to install solar powered traffic signals which signal the tee when a car is approaching from the blind end of the hole?


Trevose has a very cool 18th over the road.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2019, 03:59:14 PM »
Simply from a design/playability standpoint, I've always thought that it would be highly unlikely for a modern architect to build a hole like the 10th at Yale. Hitting over the entrance road. Blind landing area. Severely uphill 2nd to a rollercoaster green. So many qualities that might get labeled as "unfair," yet it is one of my favorite holes on the course.

Tim Martin

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 04:49:55 PM »
Number 11 at Misquamicut Club is a short par four of 335 yards that requires a drive from an elevated tee over Rhode Island’s Route 1A which has a fair amount of activity especially in the Summer months. I guess the road didn’t handle much traffic in the early 1900’s but I can’t imagine a permit being granted for the tee shot today.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2019, 06:21:14 PM »
Would Pebble (the entire course) get approval today?  CPC?  If so, would anyone have enough money to buy the land and build those courses?   

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great golf holes that could not be built today
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2019, 02:11:14 AM »
When it comes to an architect being brave and building iffy holes that may put players in risk, is there anything they can do to mitigate their liability? I'd imagine nearly all architects would not want to open themselves up to too much risk and/or carry the necessary insurance to cover those instances.

Much like Harbour Town, could Sawgrass be built today?

Tom, on the Fried Egg  you mentioned that in Ireland it is now very difficult to build on coastal land that wasn't already a golf course. Is this the same in places like California? Could someone take an average seaside course there and rebuild it? For that matter, would the same be applicable for courses with creeks that meander through the property very close to play? Since it's a course today, could the course be redesigned and keep the same Creek interaction?


Ben, as you know we have to build “safe” holes and to that end we even have recommended separation distances. Safety first. Always.


But how much of that is just perception and fear of a ridiculously litigious society? On all the supposedly dangerous (and great) holes we know, how many accidents have there actually been? Is that luck or is it a heightened sense of what is safe and what is dangerous with a skewed sense of same?


I’ve heard of more accidents between two parallel fairways as accidents on blind holes, road holes, crossing holes and quirky holes.


As to the environmental restrictions, it is virtually impossible to build a new course on virgin linksland anywhere in the EU ( we won’t count Britain where it is very slightly easier). Tom has got almost the perfect job at St Patrick’s because he is building on what was nominally already a golf course. But one where he doesn’t have to “undo” anything because that golf course was so minimal - effectively just mown grass - that there is nothing to cover up.