Not Good Ross Courses

[DFarron]

Peninsula CC in San Mateo CA? Ross only course in CA and I have never heard anything about it. Not ranked in top 50 in the state.

I like Peninsula, it's a pretty solid course. The problem is that it is surrounded by a half dozen excellent courses plus its pretty tough to get on.

[Mike_Young]

All that matters is the myth.  Good or bad is secondary.  Lot of places can market "Ross design" for free when the "Nicklaus" or "Fazio" label would cost dollars.   

[Tom_Doak]

I am sure  there are some duds (and also some forgeries) among Ross's supposed 400 courses, but Ross and Harry Colt are the only designers ever to build more than 100 courses I would be proud to call my own.

[Sven Nilsen]

Miami Shores is s bad Ross course; however, I talked to the head pro when I played several years ago and he said they significantly softened / butchered the course in the 80s.

Are you talking about the Miami Shores in Ohio?

[Philip Caccamise]

Daytona Beach Golf Course (South) is listed in multiple places, and by the course, as a Donald Ross. It's not good at all.

That's the only Ross I've ever played that I didn't think was at least very good.

[Chris_Blakely]

Miami Shores is s bad Ross course; however, I talked to the head pro when I played several years ago and he said they significantly softened / butchered the course in the 80s.

Are you talking about the Miami Shores in Ohio?

I have updated my original post with the city of Troy, OH.  This is the Ross course that was built / opening in 1949.


I have not played the Miami Shores in Florida.  However, that is not a Donald Ross course.


Thanks,
Chris

[Peter Pallotta]

....Ross and Harry Colt are the only designers ever to build more than 100 courses I would be proud to call my own.

That really is a remarkable statement and striking testament, to both great talent and exemplary work ethic. I can’t think of another art-craft in which one practitioner could cite 100 works by two others that he’d be ‘proud to call his own’. And I can’t think of another artist-craftsman, in any field whether a writer or a painter or a musician, to whom such a compliment could be paid. 

[Sven Nilsen]

The Woodlands in Hampton, VA is s bad Ross course but the construction of I-64
Significantly altered the course


Miami Shores (Troy, OH) is s bad Ross course; however, I talked to the head pro when I played several years ago and he said they significantly softened / butchered the course in the 80s.


Don’t know if Ross visited these courses or not, but it doesn’t matter with the changes made.


There are several  that I’ve played that I wondered what his on site involvement was if any.


Chris

Ross was on site at the Woodlands both prior to developing any plans for the redo and while work was underway.  But as you said, the course has been significantly altered.


I don't know if he was on site for Miami Shores, but seeing as he died prior to its opening and it was built while he was ill, it wouldn't surprise me if this is one of the few that he never visited.  The reports credit Ross & Associates without specifically mentioning his personal involvement.  Ironically, he was on site for the short-lived NLE Miami Shores course in Florida that was built in 1925.  Today's Miami Shores down there is a Lawrence/Wilson effort built in the late 1930's.


Curious what other courses are out there that you've wondered about his on site involvement.  Be willing to bet he made it to almost all of them, assuming the attribution is correct.


Sven

[Chris_Blakely]

Ross was on site at the Woodlands both prior to developing any plans for the redo and while work was underway.  But as you said, the course has been significantly altered.


I don't know if he was on site for Miami Shores, but seeing as he died prior to its opening and it was built while he was ill, it wouldn't surprise me if this is one of the few that he never visited.  The reports credit Ross & Associates without specifically mentioning his personal involvement.  Ironically, he was on site for the short-lived NLE Miami Shores course in Florida that was built in 1925.  Today's Miami Shores down there is a Lawrence/Wilson effort built in the late 1930's.


Curious what other courses are out there that you've wondered about his on site involvement.  Be willing to bet he made it to almost all of them, assuming the attribution is correct.


Sven

 You miss the point completely on Woodlands.  The course was redone because of I-64 going in.  thus, it does not matter that he was or was not not on site.


Based on the date of Miami Shores in Troy, OH finishing construction, I was quite confident if he was on site, there was not much to see on his visit.


I am aware the Red Lawrence was the designer of Miami Shores, that why I said for the original Ross Reference, it had to be the MS in Ohio.


I have played over 60 Ross courses, I can look at my notes and see which ones I wonder about if he made site visits.  Several of the ones in the Northeast and norther climes jump out to me.  Three of the top of my head jump out to me:


Lucerne-inn-Maine GC (Dedham, ME).
Elk Rapids GC, Elk Rapids, MI (although this course was redo in the past 20 years)
Lake Pleasant GC, LP, NY (if he made a visit, it was only to witness 2 to 3 greens being built)


Chris

[Ira Fishman]

....Ross and Harry Colt are the only designers ever to build more than 100 courses I would be proud to call my own.

That really is a remarkable statement and striking testament, to both great talent and exemplary work ethic. I can’t think of another art-craft in which one practitioner could cite 100 works by two others that he’d be ‘proud to call his own’. And I can’t think of another artist-craftsman, in any field whether a writer or a painter or a musician, to whom such a compliment could be paid.

Peter,


I have been searching my increasingly faulty memory for another example, but have not come up with one yet.


Ira

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven

 You miss the point completely on Woodlands.  The course was redone because of I-64 going in.  thus, it does not matter that he was or was not not on site.

I have played over 60 Ross courses, I can look at my notes and see which ones I wonder about if he made site visits.  Several of the ones in the Northeast and norther climes jump out to me.  Three of the top of my head jump out to me:

Lucerne-inn-Maine GC (Dedham, ME).
Elk Rapids GC, Elk Rapids, MI (although this course was redo in the past 20 years)
Lake Pleasant GC, LP, NY (if he made a visit, it was only to witness 2 to 3 greens being built)

Chris

I think you missed my point, which is that the idea that Ross only designed certain courses off of topos without visiting sites (up to a 1/3 of his courses as claimed by some) is a fallacy.


Three good examples you picked.


Lucerne - May 1926 Golf Illustrated noted he was on site staking out the course.


Elk Rapids - I don't have anything that specifically notes Ross at Elk Rapids, but we know he spent a great deal of time in Michigan working on other projects during the years it was designed and built.


Lake Pleasant - Chris Buie has a nice 1919 article in his book describing Ross on site surveying and laying out the course.  Also interesting to note that this course wasn't included in the DRS listing until only recently, most likely due to Chris' efforts.  That list isn't perfect, but its getting better.


Sven

[Sean_A]

....Ross and Harry Colt are the only designers ever to build more than 100 courses I would be proud to call my own.

That really is a remarkable statement and striking testament, to both great talent and exemplary work ethic. I can’t think of another art-craft in which one practitioner could cite 100 works by two others that he’d be ‘proud to call his own’. And I can’t think of another artist-craftsman, in any field whether a writer or a painter or a musician, to whom such a compliment could be paid.

Yes, I thought this an astonishing statement. Yet, somehow it doesn't surprise me.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean -
I believe you when you say it 'doesn't surprise' you, but I'm astonished by what you say nonetheless.
Now, you know your Colt and your Ross (and I don't), but 100 courses?!
Even if Tom D was exaggerating a bit for effect (not like him), call it 50 courses that he'd be 'proud to call his own' -- it's still remarkable.
Who were these two, so skilled & proficient that they could produce such large and exemplary bodies of work?
I still can't think of another artist-craftsman from any field who could be similarly complimented. (But even if I could, they'd be working in arts-crafts much less time-consuming & 'canvas-dependent' than gca.)
Geez, it's like Colt and Ross weren't really architects at all by alchemists!
Fascinating to think how well they must've know their crafts. 'Genius' gets thrown around too much, and like 'greatness' is probably overrated -- but if there's such a thing those two must merit the label.
P   




 

[Chris_Blakely]

[quote author=Chris_Blakely link=


I think you missed my point, which is that the idea that Ross only designed certain courses off of topos without visiting sites (up to a 1/3 of his courses as claimed by some) is a fallacy.


Three good examples you picked.


Lucerne - May 1926 Golf Illustrated noted he was on site staking out the course.


Elk Rapids - I don't have anything that specifically notes Ross at Elk Rapids, but we know he spent a great deal of time in Michigan working on other projects during the years it was designed and built.


Lake Pleasant - Chris Buie has a nice 1919 article in his book describing Ross on site surveying and laying out the course.  Also interesting to note that this course wasn't included in the DRS listing until only recently, most likely due to Chris' efforts.  That list isn't perfect, but its getting better.


Sven

Don’t know if I missed your point or not.  Mine was some of the Ross courses I have played have a rudimentary or unfinished feel to them.  Funny thing is of the five I listed two appear to be ones he did not visit and one had him just staking out holes early on.
I have never claimed he designed just from topos.  Maybe only making a visit early on and not during construction is the reason people believe he may have designed just from topos on 1/3 of his courses.


Jim Kennedy is the first person I know of to provide evidence that Lake Pleasant is a Ross course.


Chris

[Jim Nugent]

....Ross and Harry Colt are the only designers ever to build more than 100 courses I would be proud to call my own.

That really is a remarkable statement and striking testament, to both great talent and exemplary work ethic. I can’t think of another art-craft in which one practitioner could cite 100 works by two others that he’d be ‘proud to call his own’. And I can’t think of another artist-craftsman, in any field whether a writer or a painter or a musician, to whom such a compliment could be paid.

Mozart... Beethoven... Bach.... Chopin... Schubert... all produced 100 works or more (400+ for Mozart) that others would drool to have composed. 

Don't know much about painting, but don't the great painters like Picasso produce prodigious bodies of work? 

[Pete Lavallee]

Monet was the first artist to come to mind

[Erik J. Barzeski]

A) Damnit, Sven! There goes my theory. I suspect that the Chautauqua Institute has many other things on its mind, before a restoration comes to consideration, then passage. Also, kinda curious to know if the routing has been reconfigured over time, if bunkers have been removed, etc.

The original Ross blueprints are reproduced and often hang in the Learning Center (they take them down in mid-August) where I teach during the summer. Virtually all of the holes are pretty true to the originals, with a few small changes here and there. But they're pretty true.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim, Pete -
I did think of Bach and Picasso, and Monet probably too, but two things:
1. Those arts-crafts requires 'only' manuscript paper/canvas and a pen/brushes, not 200 always different acres of land
2. Consider the source, i.e. Tom D. An amateur classical composer or painter, or an average fan like me, might indeed think *all* of Bach's compositions or Picasso's paintings equally great -- but would/could a top modern professional composer or painter with a very discerning ear/eye and much great work of his own say that they'd composed or painted '100 works he'd be proud to call his own'?
At any rate, nit picking now -- but basically I thought it a remarkable (and as Sean says even astonishing) statement. I just marvel at how good these two architects must've been.
P     

[Sean_A]

Sean -
I believe you when you say it 'doesn't surprise' you, but I'm astonished by what you say nonetheless.
Now, you know your Colt and your Ross (and I don't), but 100 courses?!
Even if Tom D was exaggerating a bit for effect (not like him), call it 50 courses that he'd be 'proud to call his own' -- it's still remarkable.
Who were these two, so skilled & proficient that they could produce such large and exemplary bodies of work?
I still can't think of another artist-craftsman from any field who could be similarly complimented. (But even if I could, they'd be working in arts-crafts much less time-consuming & 'canvas-dependent' than gca.)
Geez, it's like Colt and Ross weren't really architects at all by alchemists!
Fascinating to think how well they must've know their crafts. 'Genius' gets thrown around too much, and like 'greatness' is probably overrated -- but if there's such a thing those two must merit the label.
P

Pietro

The reason Tom's statement doesn't surprise me is he seems to admire courses for all sorts of reasons from sound archie principles, to naturalism, to needs must, to beauty, to function to design bang for buck etc.  I never thought about Ross in this way, but I think the biggest difference between Colt's best and and merely good courses is more often than not down to the land and setting.  It is the grandness of the site which lifts Colt's work to greatness rather than the architectural input.  I can see the same architectural quality at Harborne as I do at St Georges Hill. 

I have a theory that when its all said and done, if we think of music as tunes, the Beatles will go down as one of the best tune writers of all time who have produced a fair amount....right there with greats of classical music.  I spose that too is how I think of Ross and Colt.  Nobody in else gca was so prodigious with such consistency, excellence and popularity. 

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - thanks, that strikes me as a very fine insight, both into Tom D’s approach and of gca in general.

PS - a friend just emailed me with a suggestion for another artist-craftsman to whom the compliment could apply, and I’m embarrassed I hadn’t thought of him, ie Duke Ellington!

[Sean_A]

Sean - thanks, that strikes me as a very fine insight, both into Tom D’s approach and of gca in general.

PS - a friend just emailed me with a suggestion for another artist-craftsman to whom the compliment could apply, and I’m embarrassed I hadn’t thought of him, ie Duke Ellington!

Pietro

I was struggling to think of many jazz composers who were prolific and popular (though none were nowhere near as popular as The Beatles).  I spose if there is one it is Duke Ellington, though I don't have a clue how many "quality tunes" he wrote.  Although, he must have wrote at least a dozen all-time classic tunes that are now simply part of everyday culture...so much so that folks don't even bother to attempt to know the composer.  These songs just are.

Anyway...Colt and Ross are not too dissimilar to Duke Ellington in their own way. Perhaps one of the biggest differences is the difficulty in imagining Ross or Colt trying to arrange a "cover course" in the way that D Ellington and many other jazz musicians did with covering songs.  Perhaps the closest thing we have is when an archie comes in to make changes to an existing design, but that work is for a long time whereas many a jazz musician's effort may only be played once and is eventually lost in time when memories fade.  That said, how many covers are there of Summertime?  This may be the ultimate pop culture tune which anybody from any genre would love to claim as their own. Very strangely, the one guy I would have thought would knock Summertime out of the park was Miles, but I think he missed the mark.  On the other hand, his cover of It Ain't Necessarily So is unbelievably good...coming from the guy who thinks it is nearly impossible to marry brass and strings. I can never listen to Moondance without thinking of Miles' cover of It Ain't...

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean, to stretch the analogy to the breaking point (and probably passed it):

Ross & Colt might be like more like Gershwin than Ellington, the former's many top tunes covered (and improvised on) by countless musicians while the latter made music that was so much his own, and so tied to/dependent on the players in his own orchestra, that other musicians & orchestras mainly stayed away, save as playing that music as an homage to the Duke. And the reason why Gershwin was so popular among jazz musicians was because the chord progressions, the *structure*, of his tunes was so solid and made so much sense and flowed so easily and naturally one into another that it made improvising a (relative) breeze.  (As you probably know, his "I've Got Rhythm" was not only recorded hundreds of times, but the chord progression itself became a 'standard' and became known simply as 'the rhythm changes' -- and in turn served as the basis of literally hundreds of more 'new' tunes composed by various jazz musicians.) In short, if Gershwin had been a gca like Colt and Ross, I'd say that his main/most important strength was his *routings*.
 

[Ira Fishman]

I have played only two Colts--Swinley Forest and St. George's Hill.  The land is pretty similar so I cannot speak firsthand to his ability to work with a variety of topographies and soils although some of his links courses look awfully darn good.  Ross seemed comfortable with variety.  Mid Pines and Pine Needles even though across the road from each other have different land, and he built two different excellent courses.  Pinehurst 2 is pretty flat, but he also built on hilly sites and even in the mountains.  In this way, the Beatles analogy is a good one--just an absolutely large range and variety of great songs.


In terms of the question of jazz covers, 'Round Midnight has been the one for me to judge within the jazz genre.  But I find Take Five, like Summertime, fascinating because it started as pure acoustical before the lyrics were written some dozen years later and then it crossed over into other genres.  And as an aside, and I know I have said it before, there are some very good covers of God Bless the Child, but I wish Billie Holiday's were the only version because it is as close to perfect as it gets.


Ira


PS Is Old Elm the only course on which Colt and Ross worked on in pretty close proximity in terms of years?

[Sean_A]

Sean, to stretch the analogy to the breaking point (and probably passed it):

Ross & Colt might be like more like Gershwin than Ellington, the former's many top tunes covered (and improvised on) by countless musicians while the latter made music that was so much his own, and so tied to/dependent on the players in his own orchestra, that other musicians & orchestras mainly stayed away, save as playing that music as an homage to the Duke. And the reason why Gershwin was so popular among jazz musicians was because the chord progressions, the *structure*, of his tunes was so solid and made so much sense and flowed so easily and naturally one into another that it made improvising a (relative) breeze.  (As you probably know, his "I've Got Rhythm" was not only recorded hundreds of times, but the chord progression itself became a 'standard' and became known simply as 'the rhythm changes' -- and in turn served as the basis of literally hundreds of more 'new' tunes composed by various jazz musicians.) In short, if Gershwin had been a gca like Colt and Ross, I'd say that his main/most important strength was his *routings*.

Pietro

You are probably right!  It is odd then that perhaps Girshwin's (etc) most popular and (eventually) critically acclaimed Porgy & Bess took so long to sink into the popular culture. 

Ira

There are some songs which should not be covered unless it is to be a radical re-arrangment.  God Bless The Child is one such song. 

I can't recall hearing a version of Round Midnight that I didn't care for.  Of course, being a sentimentalist at heart and Bill Evans being my go to pianist, I like his cover best. He plays it pretty straight, but a bit more filled out than T Monk's original version.  It is hard to imagine this song was written in the early 40s.  It must have sounded bloody wild at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzYZB9ZJ9RE

Ciao

[SL_Solow]

I always enjoy the gca/jazz analogies.  I have some trouble with the use of the term "cover" in this context as the improvisational aspect is quite different than the 'covering" in more" pop" genres.  Peter, would the Rhythm Changes be more akin to a template hole than a routing?