News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
A Defenseless Medinah
« on: August 16, 2019, 03:12:54 PM »
Yes, it’s still early, but the soft, wind-free Medinah is looking like the Poster Child for bifurcation. Only two players finished above par in the first round, making it the easiest round of the year on the pga tour, if I heard correctly on the telecast. This is the course that historically inspired fear and respect, especially at prior PGA championships. Paul Azinger calls it “a hard course and they’re making it look easy.”


That’s an understatement.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 03:15:08 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0

Peter Pallotta

Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2019, 03:43:08 PM »
And early in the week, Tiger mentioned his fond-winning memories of the place, but noted that the course was a lot bigger-longer than when he won there in 1999 and 2006. And still...
Everyone in golf seems to wants to ‘keep up with the Joneses’, but it’s a strange thing indeed when the Woodses can’t even keep up with themselves!
‘Get me Hanse on the line - stat! Oh, and 25 million bucks too’.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2019, 03:47:23 PM »
Is this Medinah or the Bob Hope Desert Classic?


Does anyone really enjoy these birdiefests on formerly great and challenging courses that have been neutered by the refusal of the ruling bodies to do a damn thing to rein in technology?


More sleep inducing than a bottle of melatonin washed down with a dram of Scotch.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2019, 03:51:28 PM »
Not for nothing, Matsuyama beat the competitive course record in the second round the BY 2 SHOTS, with a nine-under par 63.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 04:31:31 PM »
Even the Bible of the Confidential Guide lists Medinah as one of the most difficult courses. It has been true for a very long time that Man plus Technology will overwhelm the land for good or bad.


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2019, 04:48:30 PM »
That’s it in a nutshell, Ira — you’ve put into words the gnawing discomfort I have re: ever larger and longer golf courses, ie
man & technology ‘overwhelming’ the land.
Ugh.
For reasons of commerce and economic prosperity, it may be a necessity.
For a sport like football, played on a ‘grid-iron’ by behemoths born and/or made, it’s a near inevitability
But when it comes to the grand game of golf and its natural & ever varied fields of play, it feels like a crying shame


« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 05:04:21 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 05:06:48 PM »
A few years ago I'd most likely be watching the golf from Medinah on TV.
This evening I quite simply can't be bothered. I doubt I'm the only one.
It's soooooo boring.
Mr PGA-Tour and Mr Advertiser take note.
atb

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2019, 05:27:49 PM »
It remains clear the only way to challenge these players significantly is to narrow the fairways down to 20 yards wide, grow the rough to 3-4 in, and bake the greens out to Shinny levels.


Or play a UK links course in a gale.


Some alternatives to a rollback:


Blindfolds
Have giant fans that make every hole into the wind
Spherical putter (no flat areas)
3 clubs only (Driver, wedge, putter). Nevermind that's all they hit anyway.
Everyone switches to their opposite hand.  Jordan Spieth or Phil Mickelson would win every tournament.









Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2019, 05:31:06 PM »
Watched yesterday as Dustin Johnson drove a par four of 344 yards and put it on the middle of the green. In 1967 Dean Beaman hit driver Five-wood into the first hole at Baltusrol, which was about 460 yards.  Nothing more needs to be said.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 07:54:03 PM »
Blindfolds
Have giant fans that make every hole into the wind
Spherical putter (no flat areas)
3 clubs only (Driver, wedge, putter). Nevermind that's all they hit anyway.
Everyone switches to their opposite hand.  Jordan Spieth or Phil Mickelson would win every tournament.

Persimmon
Renumbering irons so that a 4-iron becomes a 2-iron
Change the size of the ball
Eliminate par-fives :)
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 08:16:52 PM »
I think Mike is on to something here, I sure as hell never thought I'd be watching the Sony Open in Chicago, much less at Medinah #3.  And its not short by any means at over 7600 yards. 




jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 08:59:56 PM »
I think Mike is on to something here, I sure as hell never thought I'd be watching the Sony Open in Chicago, much less at Medinah #3.  And its not short by any means at over 7600 yards.


Mike IS onto something here.
Pro golf is entertainment- many of us like classic courses, many of us like seeing great players hitting clubs besides wedges.
The "chicks dig the long ball" and "who cares what the pros do but don't take away my(ever growing) crack" crowds are also entitled to their opinion. We just disagree.
There may be more of them than there are of us.
So be it, but we don't have to watch, or if a rollback occurs-they may choose not to(some people like watching the 18th at English Turn 22 times a year).
But our former tiny side is growing
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 09:39:24 PM »
I think Mike is on to something here, I sure as hell never thought I'd be watching the Sony Open in Chicago, much less at Medinah #3.  And its not short by any means at over 7600 yards.


You say you watched, but did you? The only people who watch golf on TV outside the majors do so because they are homebound due to boredom. Makes me a little sad to think that people actually want better courses on TV so they can have a better excuse to stay home. Makes me even sadder that some parents out their wish their children could get the same enjoyment they once had from TV. Those are not the good ole days, those are the dreadful down days of a lonely summer at home on the couch. I wouldn't wish that on any child.




David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 10:26:57 PM »
For a bit more context, Medinah has a course rating of 78.3 and a slope of 152.


A single figure golfer can play to his handicap by shooting 90 around this place.


As much as technology needs to be called out, so does this form of golf course architecture that makes golf extremely difficult for less skilled golfers and easy for pros.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 11:39:53 PM »
For a bit more context, Medinah has a course rating of 78.3 and a slope of 152.


A single figure golfer can play to his handicap by shooting 90 around this place.


As much as technology needs to be called out, so does this form of golf course architecture that makes golf extremely difficult for less skilled golfers and easy for pros.


Less skilled golfers would never and should
never play a 7700 yard golf course with 245 yard carries. It’s a false analogy.


The guys are amazing ballstrikers and hit their drivers on lines and trajectories I never thought were possible. I played with Lucas Glover in the pro-am on Wednesday.  I couldn’t believe the shots he hit. [size=78%] [/size]


I would like to say I don’t these scores would be occurring if it didn’t rain an inch on Monday and Tuesday, but I’m not so sure about that. I am pretty sure that if you put these guys out on any architecturally sacred course without tricking it up, which the PGA did not do here, they would shoot similar scores.


There’s no real defense to this - other than USGA’ing the course - and nobody wants that. It’s entertainment after all - and the job of the PGA Tour is to showcase its product, the golfers, not the course.


In fact, as the PGA Tour said tonight, the last thing they want is anything other than the golfers being the main story - and I get that.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 11:42:26 PM »
Meanwhile,,, In North Carolina, The Deuce is proving to be the optimal form of the sport, on the planet.


Sweet home, Chicago. 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2019, 02:51:40 AM »
Regardless of what it has hosted, wasn't Medinah always a boring course to watch golf? That's my recollection, an overhyped Midwest course that did its best to eliminate any interest golf may hold for TV viewers. Those good old days are not how I remember it.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2019, 06:31:49 AM »
Even the Bible of the Confidential Guide lists Medinah as one of the most difficult courses. It has been true for a very long time that Man plus Technology will overwhelm the land for good or bad.



To be fair, they thinned out the trees considerably  a few years back, so they could grow grass in the fairways.  Part of what made it so difficult was that the trees were so thick you had to come out sideways.


All these recent posts about how the sky is falling are old news.  It fell several years ago; it's just getting harder to stay in denial.  And a $15m renovation won't change that at all, in fact on most of those they are flattening the greens a bit.  But I guess they will be able to make them even faster then 😕

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2019, 08:56:49 AM »
I think Mike is on to something here, I sure as hell never thought I'd be watching the Sony Open in Chicago, much less at Medinah #3.  And its not short by any means at over 7600 yards.


You say you watched, but did you? The only people who watch golf on TV outside the majors do so because they are homebound due to boredom. Makes me a little sad to think that people actually want better courses on TV so they can have a better excuse to stay home. Makes me even sadder that some parents out their wish their children could get the same enjoyment they once had from TV. Those are not the good ole days, those are the dreadful down days of a lonely summer at home on the couch. I wouldn't wish that on any child.

Jk,

I watched 2 hours on the golf channel re-telecast for crimney sakes.  But it is the playoffs too, so I thought it'd be interesting to take a look. 

P.S. I will give you credit for the being stuck at home thing...I've been battling a bad back with nerve issues in my feet for the last year so less going out for me.  But my wife and cats seems to be enjoying my company.  ;)

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2019, 10:08:55 AM »
I watch to see who shoots the lowest score and how they do it, given the course and playing conditions.  What number that ends up being is of no interest to me.  Messing with the course and with the equipment in an attempt to make that score even par makes no sense.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2019, 10:12:31 AM »
Can you imagine the ridiculousness of watching DJ swagger down the fairway after a 250 yd drive?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2019, 10:48:35 AM »

Seems little doubt that it calls for a new design paradigm, but only for those 50-100 courses that might hold a PGA Tour event or Major.  I guess we will see if the current crop of top designers can manage it doing something different.  Doak in Houston and Hanse in Frisco, TX seemingly make Texas a testing ground.....Remember Golf's version of the Alamo!"  Not quite catchy enough, that slogan needs work.


But seriously, the average course length on the PGA Tour and in collegiate events is still closer to 7200 yards.  I'm told that even at 7600, you limit the likely field of winners to 20 or so of the longest hitters, and 7200 allows the lower half of the field to compete.


That Geoff S graphic about how much better they are doing shows examples well past the introduction of the PROV 1, so distance keeps increasing, yes, but we are past the big jump, so there must be another explanation.  I think TD is close - a missed tee shot doesn't automatically cost bogey there any more.  I think the whole Pete Dye philosophy was that you can't stop birdies, so you better cause a few higher scores through the round.


I have long figured the bifurcation would come by identifying tournament courses, not in the equipment.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2019, 11:03:08 AM »
This is why the Royal Melbourne apologist need to hold back their kangaroo tears. Match play is a different mentality that results in many more birdies and very very few high scores. This same board celebrated the birdies at Medinah during the Ryder Cup.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2019, 11:09:02 AM »
There are plenty of ways to challenge good players, but the norms of golf design has made it very hard to build outside the box.


Get away from the idea that length is a defense.


Build greens that are challenging to putt and hold when approaching from less than ideal position.


Get away from thinking bunkers are a hazard, short grass with contour is much harder for the top players.


With a trees course like Medinah, eliminate the tough so slightly off center shots actually run into the trees. 


What happened to dog leg holes.  If these guys are so good, is asking them to shape the ball both ways so bad?


Long soft golf courses with relatively tame greens, rough lining fwys like bumpers on a bowling alley, and bunkers that contain the ball near the hole is not the answer to challenging the best players

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back