OT - "The Disruption of the Golf Ball Market is in Full Swing"

[David_Tepper]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-15/snell-vice-oncore-direct-to-consumer-golf-balls-chip-at-market?srnd=premium

[Jim_Kennedy]

Good luck toppling companies like Acushnet and Callaway, especially when they have the ability (as Acushent recently did) to buy companies like PG Profesional Golf, one of the largest recyclers of golf balls in the US.


Best hope: catch enough market share to be seen as worrisome, and get bought out.   

[David_Tepper]

"Best hope: catch enough market share to be seen as worrisome, and get bought out."     

Jim K. -

Good point. That is what exactly happened is the men's shaving business, as both the Dollar Shave Club and Harry's were bought out at VERY rich prices.

DT 

[Mike Sweeney]

I have been a Snell Ball player for a few years now. When we got hammered with wind in Ireland, I had to buy Titleist balls. Being on a golf junket, I did not look at the price until after we left. Wow, those balls are expensive.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Good thing you didn't buy any "Clear" balls from Lendl's and Irish billionaire Dermot Desmond's company, they're about $70.00 @ dozen.    I imagine ProV's are expensive in the pro shops, but they're about the same price at Euro and US golf warehouses ($50), with Snell's selling around $36 American.

At "LostGolfBalls", the company that Titleist just bought 80% of, you can buy 5A graded ProV's for$24.00 @ dozen. There isn't a scratch or a mark on them. They are so perfect that I can't tell the difference between them and new ones.

...or if you plan ahead you can order 4 dozen new ProV's for the price of 3 in the spring.

But you like Snell's, and I'm guessing it isn't just the price difference.

[Tim Martin]

Costco’s “Kirkland Signature” 3 piece ball is available at Walmart for $41.99 for two dozen with free shipping.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It wouldn't have the same ring for me on the first tee if I was to declare to my opponents that I was playing a "Kirkland 7" (can you get'em in high numbers ?) today,    but if I thought I was going to pump it into the woods, then yes, gimme a Kirkland. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Good thing you didn't buy any "Clear" balls from Lendl's and Irish billionaire Dermot Desmond's company, they're about $70.00 @ dozen.    I imagine ProV's are expensive in the pro shops, but they're about the same price at Euro and US golf warehouses ($50), with Snell's selling around $36 American.

At "LostGolfBalls", the company that Titleist just bought 80% of, you can buy 5A graded ProV's for$24.00 @ dozen. There isn't a scratch or a mark on them. They are so perfect that I can't tell the difference between them and new ones.

...or if you plan ahead you can order 4 dozen new ProV's for the price of 3 in the spring.

But you like Snell's, and I'm guessing it isn't just the price difference.

It's also difficult to tell the charge left in a battery by looks alone. I recently completed 36 holes with the same ball and could tell a noticeable difference on the first hole the next day. Sometimes you just have to trust science and retire a device after so many repetitions. Mechanical engineers call it fatigue.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Snell's selling around $36 American.

But you like Snell's, and I'm guessing it isn't just the price difference.

If you buy 5 dozen (I am wild off the tee!!), they are $28 per dozen, and yes as a small business family, we support small businesses!!


https://www.snellgolf.com/products/mtb-x-value-pack-5-dozen?variant=18066882560065&currency=USD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIne3V-v2G5AIVkJOzCh0G1gicEAQYASABEgLOzfD_BwE

[Steve Lapper]

This article is considerably misleading and woefully deficient. It doesn't remotely the biggest differentiator in the market place: Sales Channels.


All these good quality newer brand balls are indeed viable alternatives to the Titleist-Callaway-Taylor Made market leaders.


As an investor in the what was the dominant online golf retailer, it wasn't difficult to notice how well they sold at lower prices. Customers love them and only supply constraints negatively impacted their sales. As an potential investor in one of these newer brands, it made zero sense to invest capital into them.


Why not? Because none of these brands are on the shelves of green-grass and brick and mortar retailers (save for Kirkland). This sales channel, and the marketing edge that accompanies it, easily rivals, by multiples, the online commerce channel in the new premium ball category, and absent breaking through this barrier, the future of these new brands remains limited.


Furthermore, there is little reason for the established brands to outright buy a Vice, a Snell, or a Kirkland. At best it's quasi-brand dilution and at worst a silly buy given the manufacturing capacity edge the big boys maintain. They'll buy different sales channels and ancillary businesses but are unlikely to buy a competitive commoditized product.

[Joe Schackman]

Mike,

Snell's selling around $36 American.

But you like Snell's, and I'm guessing it isn't just the price difference.

If you buy 5 dozen (I am wild off the tee!!), they are $28 per dozen, and yes as a small business family, we support small businesses!!


https://www.snellgolf.com/products/mtb-x-value-pack-5-dozen?variant=18066882560065&currency=USD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIne3V-v2G5AIVkJOzCh0G1gicEAQYASABEgLOzfD_BwE

I've played Snell MTB for a few seasons now. For an everyday round it is a great ball and I will tout it to anyone that asks me about it on the course. It performs well enough that I don't feel like it holds me back but reasonably priced so if I lose it I don't sweat it.

If I am playing a tournament or more serious round I will usually sub in a ProV1.

[Ian Mackenzie]

"Best hope: catch enough market share to be seen as worrisome, and get bought out."     

Jim K. -

Good point. That is what exactly happened is the men's shaving business, as both the Dollar Shave Club and Harry's were bought out at VERY rich prices.

DT

And I TRIED Dollar Shave Club and Harry's...and I REALLY wanted them to be good.  But, in the end, they were no match for a Gillette Fusion cartridge.


Yes, I think there IS a market for a a value-based golf ball.
But not for me...ever.


Just like there are boutique law firms that promise the same work as the big shops for a fraction of the cost, there will perpetually be a market for anything that "offers the same but for less".


There are a lot of compromises I am prepared to make. But scraping a blade on my face and using some "no-name" ball to replicate THE ESSENTIAL task of golf are two areas of cost savings I am willing to forgo.


But, If I did not have sensitive skin and, for example, I played to a 12 instead of scratch...well, maybe it's worth it.

[David_Tepper]

Ian -

Unilever paid $1 BILLION for the Dollar Shave Club in 2016. Either DSC was doing something very right or Unilever was very dumb (a real possibility). 

https://www.imd.org/research-knowledge/articles/unilever-buys-dollar-shave-club/

DT

[Ronald Montesano]

Nike left the hard goods market, and that opened up 10% of the market to alternatives to their ball. None of these brands needs an Acushnet share. Give them 1-2% of the market and they will dance a tarantella.


Sales channels is an interesting posit, but the model of the new brands has little to do with green grass, other than the ball landing on it. They built their model to profit from the internet and direct shipping. If an offer to put their ball in the shops/stores/bigboxes of a region comes along, it has to fit their model. If not, no sweat nor skin.


Has youse seen the marketing of the smaller brands? Vice has Andrew Lang as a spokesman, and he is hot shit on all the social channels. Titleist will always be Titleist, and Taylor Made will be a close second, in traditional marketing and sales. For the new brands (Vice, Snell, Cut, et al) those are not their goals at this juncture.

[Tim Gavrich]

I picked up a dozen of the Mizuno RB Tour golf balls a few weeks ago. Price-wise they sit between the big-time Titleist/Callaway/TaylorMade and the direct-to-consumer ones at about $43 a dozen. I think they're excellent, FWIW, which is to say they're similarly excellent to the d-t-c balls and the primos. I have a hard time discerning much significant performance difference among those balls.

[Mike Sweeney]

Yes, I think there IS a market for a a value-based golf ball.
But not for me...ever.

Snell is NOT a value based ball:


https://mygolfspy.com/titleist-pro-v1-vs-snell-mtb-black/


Basically he figured how to get around the Patents, because:


With 29+ years in golf ball research and development, 40 U.S. granted patents and a successful background in plastics engineering, Dean Snell is considered to be one of the foremost golf ball authorities.[/size]In March 2015, he founded Snell Golf, a golf ball company committed to developing premium golf balls at affordable, direct pricing. After a successful first year marked by positive media reviews and exceeded sales expectations generated by a loyal customer base, Snell Golf was primed for a breakthrough year in 2016. Sales growth was 300%+ and has continued on such a path since, making Snell Golf the leader in direct-to-consumer golf ball brands. [/color][/size]Before starting his own company and deciding to challenge consumer golf ball buying habits, he spent 18 years at TaylorMade Golf Company. He most recently served as Vice President of Research & Development where he oversaw a team of engineers and was responsible for the  invention of several key ball franchises including TP Red & Black, Penta (golf’s first five layer ball), Lethal and the TOUR Preferred line which are played today by Sergio Garcia, Dustin Johnson, Jason Day, Justin Rose among others. He also led the design of the Noodle, Burner, RocketBallz and Project (a), golf balls[/color][/size] designed to perform for average players.Before his time at TaylorMade, Snell spent seven years with Titleist and Footjoy Worldwide where he co-designed several golf balls including the original ProV1, Professional, Tour Prestige, HP2 Tour and HP2 Distance. Snell worked closely with Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Davis Love III to bring cast urethane technology into the golf market with Titleist Professional ball as a co-inventor of the original ProV1 and Professional golf balls[/i]


And I tried Harry's and also wished it worked, but it did not for me... [/font][/color]

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I picked up a dozen of the Mizuno RB Tour golf balls a few weeks ago. Price-wise they sit between the big-time Titleist/Callaway/TaylorMade and the direct-to-consumer ones at about $43 a dozen. I think they're excellent, FWIW, which is to say they're similarly excellent to the d-t-c balls and the primos. I have a hard time discerning much significant performance difference among those balls.

As a devout Mizuno iron loyalist, I am interested in these.  How are they compared to a V1 around the greens, as in little spinny shots off tight lies?  Have you tried the RB X as well?


For me, I've played Vice and found them to be great tee to green, I actually felt they straightened me out a little bit with the driver.  That being said, I could never get the check on them on short shots like I could with the V1.


That aside, what is this GolfWRX?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Why not? Because none of these brands are on the shelves of green-grass and brick and mortar retailers (save for Kirkland). This sales channel, and the marketing edge that accompanies it, easily rivals, by multiples, the online commerce channel in the new premium ball category, and absent breaking through this barrier, the future of these new brands remains limited.

I don't think that these new brands will gain much market share but I think you overstate the significance of the sales channel in 2019 and beyond.  Amazon is now an extremely important sales channel for pretty much any item. 


But personally I will keep playing Pro V1s.  I don't go through a ton of balls and without really trying a find a decent number of Pro V1s at my club that are in very good shape.

[Jim_Kennedy]

One hundred years ago a premium golf ball cost $1.00, that's the equivalent of $18.00 today. 

It seems incongruous to me to balk at paying up to $4.00 for the world's best golf ball when you're lifting a $700 bag that contains a couple 1,000 dollars worth of equipment out of the trunk of an Audi wagon, slipping on a pair of 300 dollar spikes over your 40 dollar wool socks (never mind $$ spent on the rest of your wardrobe) and then forking out  one to a few hundred to play a premium golf course. 

He's been gone for awhile, but Bill Fox used to say that if you wanted to learn how to focus just tee up the most expensive ball in your bag on the tightest hole on your course. 

[Sean_A]

One hundred years ago a premium golf ball cost $1.00, that's the equivalent of $18.00 today. 

It seems incongruous to me to balk at paying up to $4.00 for the world's best golf ball when you're lifting a $700 bag that contains a couple 1,000 dollars worth of equipment out of the trunk of an Audi wagon, slipping on a pair of 300 dollar spikes over your 40 dollar wool socks (never mind $$ spent on the rest of your wardrobe) and then forking out  one to a few hundred to play a premium golf course. 

He's been gone for awhile, but Bill Fox used to say that if you wanted to learn how to focus just tee up the most expensive ball in your bag on the tightest hole on your course. 

Ahhh, the description of this equipment certainly pertains to a game of which I am unaware.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

If many a player tops a shot or hits one fat or wayward etc it doesn't really matter whether the ball is a ProV1 or a 15 yr old discoloured Topflight that was found in a pond and has been sitting in a golf bag or car boot for several years. And a huge number of golfers hit a considerable number of tops and fats and wayward shots etc etc (no one posting herein hit such shots however .. sic!).


And lessor players using high-spec balls that require higher swing speeds to perform optimally on full shots are already handicapping themselves .. lots of high spec balls are sold based on ego and vanity, something pro-shops, golf shops, the manufacturers and their shareholders etc must be very grateful for.


atb


PS - I wonder what Snell, Vice etc etc think of a possible rollback? A vile idea that must be killed-off or a business opportunity?