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V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« on: August 10, 2019, 10:38:49 AM »
https://golfweek.com/2019/08/03/oakland-hills-golf-club-wants-major/

Detroit brought us RoboCop and now we will have a RoboGreen Show pony!
Well then.  Let the Open Games begin.
I do believe that Ross would be doing the same thing using available technology to adjust his land to the game.
This looks like it will be an LACC level intervention and “robo-greens-tech”TM showroom. (I made that up but kinda like it. Please feel free to quote with credit.)

Philosophically, if you Like it or not, if you’re on this site, I’m guessing you will find this project intriguing.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 10:47:23 AM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 11:23:35 AM »
Yes, you can tell they are right on top of technology with quotes like this:


“It brings consistency to our greens,” Godfrey said. “Technology is everywhere, and now we have technology on our golf course, which is amazing.”

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 11:37:22 AM »
Yes, you can tell they are right on top of technology with quotes like this:


“It brings consistency to our greens,” Godfrey said. “Technology is everywhere, and now we have technology on our golf course, which is amazing.”
... which is nice...
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Peter Pallotta

Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2019, 01:12:49 PM »
V, you asked for ‘thoughts’ so I’ll toss one out:
Trouble is, fewer & fewer seem content with letting golf simply be golf and golf courses simply be golf courses. Most everyone nowadays seems to feel the need to add ‘vision’ into the mix, or ‘revitalizing the neighbourhood’, or ‘restoring Detroit’s storied place on golf’s championship map’, or ‘celebrating public golf the way it was *meant* to be played’ (or debating which yet to be built course will ‘definitely be a 10’).
It sounds good, it sounds smart, but it implicitly denies the inherent worth of the very game & golf courses the proponents of such grand ideas (supposedly) love and value.
Reminds me of Ken Burns’ documentaries: a wonderfully talented fellow, but after the Civil War series I could barely watch his ‘Jazz’ or ‘Baseball’ series. He seemed determined to make everything ‘mean’ something more: a Ted Williams’ opposite field double on an 0-2 count wasn’t ‘merely’ a great piece of hitting, it was actually ‘a clarion call announcing America’s post war boom — when Red Sox’s fans cheered Williams, they were also applauding their own new-found prosperity’; and a great solo by Charlie Parker wasn’t merely a soul stirring feat of technical mastery and artistic genius, but actually — who knew? — ‘the last stop in the vast migration from agricultural life in the rural Great Plains to industrial life in the teeming Urban Centers’.
Sounds good, sounds smart — but if you really love jazz and baseball, then a great solo or a great piece of hitting are beautiful and worthy all on their own, in and of themselves, and both already have all the ‘meaning’ they’ll ever need.
Which is to say: if you claim to love Donald Ross, then just let Ross be Ross. That’s enough, and more than good enough. Leave the ‘visions’ to the mystics.
Maybe it’s my working class roots showing, but give me Old Money (like England-old money), a shabby clubhouse, an (un-restored) Doak 6, and a membership that doesn’t give two hoots what *anyone* thinks of their club every single time.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:50:02 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2019, 01:39:47 PM »
It seems like every time there is a major at OH the course has a major rainstorm causing issues.  This move makes sense to reduce some of the risk.  Hanse's restoration plans - which were discussed here before - look great.  I believe most on here will love the finished product.  It looks to be 90% Ross restoration with a little RTJ retained such as the middle fairway bunker on 15.  OH hasn't had an open in 23 years so I understand their motivation.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2019, 02:03:02 PM »
V, you asked for ‘thoughts’ so I’ll toss one out:
Trouble is, fewer & fewer seem content with letting golf simply be golf and golf courses simply be golf courses. Most everyone nowadays seems to feel the need to add ‘vision’ into the mix, or ‘revitalizing the neighbourhood’, or ‘restoring Detroit’s storied place on golf’s championship map’, or ‘celebrating public golf the way it was *meant* to be played’ (or debating which yet to be built course will ‘definitely be a 10’).
It sounds good, it sounds smart, but it implicitly denies the inherent worth of the very game & golf courses the proponents of such grand ideas (supposedly) love and value.
Reminds me of Ken Burns’ documentaries: a wonderfully talented fellow, but after the Civil War series I could barely watch his ‘Jazz’ or ‘Baseball’ series. He seemed determined to make everything ‘mean’ something more: a Ted Williams’ opposite field double on an 0-2 count wasn’t ‘merely’ a great piece of hitting, it was actually ‘a clarion call announcing America’s post war boom — when Red Sox’s fans cheered Williams, they were also applauding their own new-found prosperity’; and a great solo by Charlie Parker wasn’t merely a soul stirring feat of technical mastery and artistic genius, but actually — who knew? — ‘the last stop in the vast migration from agricultural life in the rural Great Plains to industrial life in the teeming Urban Centers’.
Sounds good, sounds smart — but if you really love jazz and baseball, then a great solo or a great piece of hitting are beautiful and worthy all on their own, in and of themselves, and both already have all the ‘meaning’ they’ll ever need.
Which is to say: if you claim to love Donald Ross, then just let Ross be Ross. That’s enough, and more than good enough. Leave the ‘visions’ to the mystics.
Maybe it’s my working class roots showing, but give me Old Money (like England-old money), a shabby clubhouse, an (un-restored) Doak 6, and a membership that doesn’t give two hoots what *anyone* thinks of their club every single time.
Sequels are hard to quarantine from bigger, wider, faster... and drier.
But it would be fair to speculate that Ross might have done the same. When he had access as he did in NC, he treated Pinehurst, Mid Pines and Pine Needles like they were erector sets and sand-castle-based perpetual experiments.

Imagine the bar chatter when he replaced the sand greens with grass.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:08:55 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Peter Pallotta

Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2019, 02:11:38 PM »
Yes, *Ross* did, himself — the original creator/talent, not the 10th generation Greens Chair.
But I understand: OH wants a major, Hanse is the restorer, technology is key   — as the cynical producer said to a struggling Barton Fink: ‘Wallace Beery, wresting picture — what do you need, a road map?!’
All good.


Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2019, 02:14:53 PM »
robotic-greens-mower-presidio-san-francisco


As I can temporarily not play perhaps my robot can challenge your robot. $2 Nassau.

@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2019, 02:15:24 PM »
V, you asked for ‘thoughts’ so I’ll toss one out:
Trouble is, fewer & fewer seem content with letting golf simply be golf and golf courses simply be golf courses.
Sounds good, sounds smart m but if you really love jazz and baseball
Jazz and baseball are great analogies. Parker or Metheny or Miles or the Crusaders? Some like jazz in a certain idiom but the essence of Jazz is improvisation so by definition, no two performances are ever the same. Do today’s crowds indicate that baseball is better  with seat-delivered sushi and a pitchers shot clock? Old vs new, except the shot clock. Golf needs one. Shot clock for all.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:18:11 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 02:19:11 PM »
Yes, *Ross* did, himself — the original creator/talent, not the 10th generation Greens Chair.
But I understand: OH wants a major, Hanse is the restorer, technology is key   — as the cynical producer said to a struggling Barton Fink: ‘Wallace Beery, wresting picture — what do you need, a road map?!’
All good.
Yep. Venmo
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 11:43:17 PM »
robotic-greens-mower-presidio-san-francisco


As I can temporarily not play perhaps my robot can challenge your robot. $2 Nassau.


Usually the guy trailering around the greens mower ends up raking bunkers.  Why didn't they just make a robot bunker raker and leave the greens mowing the the crew?  Best job there is on a course.  Oh well.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 05:34:38 AM »
robotic-greens-mower-presidio-san-francisco


As I can temporarily not play perhaps my robot can challenge your robot. $2 Nassau.


Usually the guy trailering around the greens mower ends up raking bunkers.  Why didn't they just make a robot bunker raker and leave the greens mowing the the crew?  Best job there is on a course.  Oh well.



Lot of bugs to figure out yet with this machine, in my opinion. Skips on greens, scalped cleanups, VERY SLOW...….
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 08:33:11 AM »
Hopefully someone is working on a robotic golfing exoskeleton.  It may be my last hope to hit that baby draw on command.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 10:51:41 AM »
I'm glad courses like Oakland Hills go to the extreme to host majors. Because it means the majority of great, old, classic courses won't be F*$#&$ up by the USGA or PGA.
H.P.S.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 12:23:00 PM »
https://golfweek.com/2019/08/03/oakland-hills-golf-club-wants-major/

Detroit brought us RoboCop and now we will have a RoboGreen Show pony!
Well then.  Let the Open Games begin.
I do believe that Ross would be doing the same thing using available technology to adjust his land to the game.
This looks like it will be an LACC level intervention and “robo-greens-tech”TM showroom. (I made that up but kinda like it. Please feel free to quote with credit.)

Philosophically, if you Like it or not, if you’re on this site, I’m guessing you will find this project intriguing.

Thoughts?



This is really no difference that what LACC did, Southern Hills did and Merion just did.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 12:43:36 PM »
robotic-greens-mower-presidio-san-francisco


As I can temporarily not play perhaps my robot can challenge your robot. $2 Nassau.



When these first came out, someone asked a super what it was like to look at a computer where the driver used to be.  His reply was "about the same facial blank expression I saw in my early morning operators."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 08:26:54 PM »

This is really no difference that what LACC did, Southern Hills did and Merion just did.


Shocker that:  very different climates, but same consultants, same goal ("We will do anything to host a U.S. Open"), and same very expensive recommendation.


Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 09:23:16 AM »
It looks like Gil is the new Open matchmaker, or marketing himself as such.  However LACC always turned down the USGA previously and decided to say yes finally, not so much about the restoration, Merion I thought was more of a question of infrastructure not the course, Oakland hills we shall see what happens.  So questionable how key a Gil Hanse restoration plays in it, but the perception is it does to some.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 09:39:50 AM by Jeff Schley »
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 09:40:25 AM »
Can't figure out this formatting so here is my post again.


It looks like Gil is the new Open matchmaker, or marketing himself as such.  However LACC always turned down the USGA previously and decided to say yes finally, not so much about the restoration, Merion I thought was more of a question of infrastructure not the course, Oakland hills we shall see what happens.  So questionable how key a Gil Hanse restoration plays in it, but the perception is it does to some.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2019, 11:57:32 AM »
Whatever the merits of such a system, rest assured that it is enormously expensive. Laste year I had a quote for a similar system, Sub Air, for $175,000 per green. That is just for the system equipment and installation, it doesn't include the materials and construction for the green itself. The total cost per green would likely be in the mid 200k's. With a couple of practice greens you're looking at 4 million.

Not that the expense matters to Oakland Hills.

I'm waiting for someone to do a Precision Air on tees and fairways.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2019, 12:02:15 PM »
robotic-greens-mower-presidio-san-francisco


As I can temporarily not play perhaps my robot can challenge your robot. $2 Nassau.


Usually the guy trailering around the greens mower ends up raking bunkers.  Why didn't they just make a robot bunker raker and leave the greens mowing the the crew?  Best job there is on a course.  Oh well.



Lot of bugs to figure out yet with this machine, in my opinion. Skips on greens, scalped cleanups, VERY SLOW...….


With present day established technology I can at least send the guy doing this now out to rake bunkers after.  ;D
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2019, 12:04:38 PM »
Whatever the merits of such a system, rest assured that it is enormously expensive. Laste year I had a quote for a similar system, Sub Air, for $175,000 per green. That is just for the system equipment and installation, it doesn't include the materials and construction for the green itself. The total cost per green would likely be in the mid 200k's. With a couple of practice greens you're looking at 4 million.

Not that the expense matters to Oakland Hills.

I'm waiting for someone to do a Precision Air on tees and fairways.
Tees and fairways would be ridiculously expensive, I mean unless it is a par 3 I like the idea of moving to artificial teeing areas in the long run. We have talked about it here in the desert as you are using tees anyway so the turf itself isn't a factor. Responsible here as water is scarce.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2019, 01:20:37 PM »
Whatever the merits of such a system, rest assured that it is enormously expensive. Laste year I had a quote for a similar system, Sub Air, for $175,000 per green. That is just for the system equipment and installation, it doesn't include the materials and construction for the green itself. The total cost per green would likely be in the mid 200k's. With a couple of practice greens you're looking at 4 million.

Not that the expense matters to Oakland Hills.

I'm waiting for someone to do a Precision Air on tees and fairways.
Tees and fairways would be ridiculously expensive, I mean unless it is a par 3 I like the idea of moving to artificial teeing areas in the long run. We have talked about it here in the desert as you are using tees anyway so the turf itself isn't a factor. Responsible here as water is scarce.
Of course it would be obscenely expensive, and nobody needs it, but mark my words, some one will do it eventually.

It's like a Bugatti Veyron. It's insanely expensive, and nobody needs one, but people still pay for it.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2019, 02:49:02 PM »
Whatever the merits of such a system, rest assured that it is enormously expensive. Laste year I had a quote for a similar system, Sub Air, for $175,000 per green. That is just for the system equipment and installation, it doesn't include the materials and construction for the green itself. The total cost per green would likely be in the mid 200k's. With a couple of practice greens you're looking at 4 million.

Not that the expense matters to Oakland Hills.

I'm waiting for someone to do a Precision Air on tees and fairways.
Tees and fairways would be ridiculously expensive, I mean unless it is a par 3 I like the idea of moving to artificial teeing areas in the long run. We have talked about it here in the desert as you are using tees anyway so the turf itself isn't a factor. Responsible here as water is scarce.


The fact that something is ridiculously expensive doesn't stop people doing it. The new Education City golf course in Qatar is USGA-spec _wall to wall_ at a cost of well over a hundred million dollars. And yet, it's perfectly possible to see it as a sensible decision. Capital is not in short supply in Qatar; water is. They reckon that by doing it this way it locks in 30 per cent water savings throughout the life of the golf course. Who are we to say that's not a sensible decision in the circumstances, even if it seems utterly insane in isolation?

Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: RoboCop to RoboGreens- Arms Race Continues At Oakland Hills
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2019, 04:27:25 PM »
Whatever the merits of such a system, rest assured that it is enormously expensive. Laste year I had a quote for a similar system, Sub Air, for $175,000 per green. That is just for the system equipment and installation, it doesn't include the materials and construction for the green itself. The total cost per green would likely be in the mid 200k's. With a couple of practice greens you're looking at 4 million.

Not that the expense matters to Oakland Hills.

I'm waiting for someone to do a Precision Air on tees and fairways.
Tees and fairways would be ridiculously expensive, I mean unless it is a par 3 I like the idea of moving to artificial teeing areas in the long run. We have talked about it here in the desert as you are using tees anyway so the turf itself isn't a factor. Responsible here as water is scarce.


The fact that something is ridiculously expensive doesn't stop people doing it. The new Education City golf course in Qatar is USGA-spec _wall to wall_ at a cost of well over a hundred million dollars. And yet, it's perfectly possible to see it as a sensible decision. Capital is not in short supply in Qatar; water is. They reckon that by doing it this way it locks in 30 per cent water savings throughout the life of the golf course. Who are we to say that's not a sensible decision in the circumstances, even if it seems utterly insane in isolation?
The logic of long term cost savings on water/maintenace is what is motivating hundreds of school districts to replace their grass football/baseball (yes baseball now) to 100% turf.  These districts are cutting back in many areas, but yet cutting 1 million dollar checks for new turf because the power point presentations given by the fieldturf companies presents huge cost savings long term. I can certainly see the case for tees to go turf first. 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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