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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #425 on: September 02, 2021, 10:44:53 AM »
Are modern players more skilled than Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Tom Weiskopf or Severiano Ballesteros?  Based on the equipment and ball they were using then vs today I would say not even close.
Coming from you, that's not surprising in the least.

But, yeah, you're probably right: golf is the only sport in existence that's grown, but somehow has produced worse athletes.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #426 on: September 02, 2021, 11:13:38 AM »
Are modern players more skilled than Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Tom Weiskopf or Severiano Ballesteros?  Based on the equipment and ball they were using then vs today I would say not even close.
Coming from you, that's not surprising in the least.

But, yeah, you're probably right: golf is the only sport in existence that's grown, but somehow has produced worse athletes.


Those sorts of comparisons are difficult to make.  This link is an effort to compare Jessie Owen's PB of 10.2 seconds to Usain Bolt's best time which was 9.5 something.  The entire difference might be explained by the track, the shoes and the starting block. The live experiment they did involved one participant and compared his personal best v. his time in a "rollback" 100 meter dash.  It by no means the end of the matter.  https://everything-everywhere.com/jesse-owens-vs-usain-bolt-who-would-win/


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #427 on: September 02, 2021, 11:33:30 AM »
Are modern players more skilled than Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman, Tom Weiskopf or Severiano Ballesteros?  Based on the equipment and ball they were using then vs today I would say not even close.
Coming from you, that's not surprising in the least.

But, yeah, you're probably right: golf is the only sport in existence that's grown, but somehow has produced worse athletes.


I never said anything about better athletes. I said they were more skilled IMO. Coming from you I just expect fabrication.



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #428 on: September 02, 2021, 11:39:07 AM »
I never said anything about better athletes. I said they were more skilled IMO. Coming from you I just expect fabrication.
I quoted Clayton's sentence about "athletes" and you're the one who injected the word "skilled."

But, to play along, yes, they are more skilled, because they have to be, or they wouldn't last on the PGA Tour. Jack said it in 1996: the average player of today would have been a star in his day.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #429 on: September 02, 2021, 11:42:04 AM »

But, yeah, you're probably right: golf is the only sport in existence that's grown, but somehow has produced worse athletes.




Professional golfers are obviously more athletic today than in the past, but I'm not sure about more skilled.  They aren't used to having to hit their drives in the center of a small clubface.  Indeed, that is one of the arguments for addressing distance by adjusting the ball, and not just making them go back to persimmon . . . that going back to persimmon would be unfair to a generation that never had to learn the skill of hitting it "on the screws".


Of course, that argument may be disingenuous, as we all know Callaway and other companies would fight until their last breath against a new rule that mandated persimmon heads over their high-tech $500 drivers.  But you can't take BOTH sides in that debate.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #430 on: September 02, 2021, 11:58:41 AM »
Those sorts of comparisons are difficult to make.
If you're talking about singular people, sure. They can be. French Lick, IN is unlikely to have produced one of the best basketball players of all time, but it did.

It's just a numbers game: Tom Weiskopf was a good athlete and a good golfer. But there might be 20 or 30 Tom Weiskopfs out there now. In a class of ten kids it's pretty easy to be the top athlete or scholar or pianist or speller or scientist. If that top kid moves to a class of 500, there's a good chance he'd be top 50, but top one? It'd be significantly harder. It could still happen, but it's not likely.


Professional golfers are obviously more athletic today than in the past, but I'm not sure about more skilled.

That's because you're all defining "skill" in a way that suits you. Players have learned to play the game the way it's played now. So for example, base running and hitting line drive singles and doubles and fielding used to be more important in baseball, so those players 100 years ago did those things. Today it's more about home runs, so players learn to do those things. The first basemen on many teams is not a great fielder. "The bat plays." The mid-range jump shot (I'm not a basketball guy so this is my recollection of what I've read) used to be an important "skill" in basketball, but it's gone and given way to high-percentage short shots and three-point attempts. The game has changed, and if you asked basketball players from the 1960s to throw up as many three-point attempts as you see now, their shooting percentage would likely be lower than modern basketball players who spend more time working on those skills.

Just because it's a "different" skill doesn't mean it's less skilled.

Golf course architects do things differently now than they did 100 years ago. Are you "less skilled" of an architect because you have different skills?

They aren't used to having to hit their drives in the center of a small clubface.

Oh stop. Y'all act like guys on the PGA Tour can't hit the center of the clubface. They aren't mis-hitting their small-headed 3W all the time. And they're doing that with longer and lighter shafts, both of which make it more difficult to find the center of the face.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #431 on: September 02, 2021, 12:19:31 PM »
I actually agree with Erik on this one but perhaps for different reasons.

In Sam or Jacks day, a great player had to go thru far far less other good or even great players to excel and be successful on the PGA Tour. And Jack has basically admitted this. But now, with the widespread popularity and proliferation of the game and being accessible to a much wider pool of potential high skill players on a global level....its a proverbial gauntlet just to get to the Korn Ferry tour (or equivalent), much less the PGATour and excel at that level.

So the question to me is, if Tiger was born 50 years prior to when he was, would he have ever become Tiger?  I highly doubt it for a number of reasons.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #432 on: September 02, 2021, 12:30:53 PM »

Just because it's a "different" skill doesn't mean it's less skilled.

Golf course architects do things differently now than they did 100 years ago. Are you "less skilled" of an architect because you have different skills?

They aren't used to having to hit their drives in the center of a small clubface.

Oh stop. Y'all act like guys on the PGA Tour can't hit the center of the clubface. They aren't mis-hitting their small-headed 3W all the time. And they're doing that with longer and lighter shafts, both of which make it more difficult to find the center of the face.





I will let Mike Clayton argue with you on this point, since he participates here.  He loves to put persimmon clubs in the hands of young players to see what they can do. 


But Mike is not the only one who has said to me that Norman's big advantage back in his prime, and certainly Nicklaus's big advantage in his prime, was being able to consistently hit their drivers at something close to full speed, which most other players back then [even Tour players] did not do very consistently at all.


I agree with you that there are a lot more players who are really competitive today than there were 20 years ago or 50 years ago.  Padraig Harrington said as much to me this summer -- he has to go full out, because there are so many good players now he can't lay back and have a chance to win.  But some of that is because the equipment has made it easier.  I do not believe there are 80 guys on Tour who could hit Jack Nicklaus' old driver the way Jack did.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #433 on: September 02, 2021, 12:48:46 PM »

So for example, base running and hitting line drive singles and doubles and fielding used to be more important in baseball, so those players 100 years ago did those things. Today it's more about home runs, so players learn to do those things.



Given baseball's popularity decline in recent years, the fact that it's become a more one-dimensional game probably hasn't helped matters, has it?


Last Sunday's playoff really crystallized things for me. Is there any question that seeing Patrick Cantlay hole pressure-filled putt after putt was infinitely more impressive and thrilling than watching Bryson DeChambeau swing comically hard with a golf club equivalent of bowling lane bumpers? I mean, it's not even close.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #434 on: September 02, 2021, 01:00:23 PM »
Chicks may dig the long ball but as a life-long viewer of televised golf I probably watched less than 20 total hours of the PGA tour since January 2000.  This, during a shut-in pandemic.


I find the psuedo-drama of -28 beating a group at -27 basically unwatchable.  We talk about how the powers that be let equipment out of control but how about snail-like slow play?   There is more action on QVC.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #435 on: September 02, 2021, 02:20:19 PM »

So for example, base running and hitting line drive singles and doubles and fielding used to be more important in baseball, so those players 100 years ago did those things. Today it's more about home runs, so players learn to do those things.



Given baseball's popularity decline in recent years, the fact that it's become a more one-dimensional game probably hasn't helped matters, has it?


Last Sunday's playoff really crystallized things for me. Is there any question that seeing Patrick Cantlay hole pressure-filled putt after putt was infinitely more impressive and thrilling than watching Bryson DeChambeau swing comically hard with a golf club equivalent of bowling lane bumpers? I mean, it's not even close.


Interesting comparison when you consider that Major League Baseball has, RATHER QUIETLY, tweaked the equipment almost annually for the past 15 or so years in some way or the other.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2930509-mlb-reportedly-making-changes-to-baseballs-to-control-home-run-rate

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/will-mlbs-altered-ball-change-2021-home-run-rate-heres-what-players-and-spring-stats-are-saying-about-it/

The height of the seams has also been tweaked.

http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #436 on: September 02, 2021, 02:24:55 PM »
Last Sunday's playoff really crystallized things for me. Is there any question that seeing Patrick Cantlay hole pressure-filled putt after putt was infinitely more impressive and thrilling than watching Bryson DeChambeau swing comically hard with a golf club equivalent of bowling lane bumpers? I mean, it's not even close.


+1

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #437 on: September 02, 2021, 02:41:58 PM »
I actually agree with Erik on this one but perhaps for different reasons.

In Sam or Jacks day, a great player had to go thru far far less other good or even great players to excel and be successful on the PGA Tour. And Jack has basically admitted this. But now, with the widespread popularity and proliferation of the game and being accessible to a much wider pool of potential high skill players on a global level....its a proverbial gauntlet just to get to the Korn Ferry tour (or equivalent), much less the PGATour and excel at that level.

So the question to me is, if Tiger was born 50 years prior to when he was, would he have ever become Tiger?  I highly doubt it for a number of reasons.

Two points here. First, try to never agree with Erik. That’s a blanket statement that will serve you well. Second, if Tiger had been born 50 years earlier, his skill still would have shown itself. Yes, there are other factors like access to the game, but based purely on skill, Tiger would have been Tiger. He also might have had a longer career without injury because 50 years ago golfers did not train like Navy SEALS.

Another post made the point that the advantage the great drivers like Nicklaus and Norman had was the ability to hit the center of the club face with a high-spin ball at full speed. Even most good ballstrikers had to dial back their swing to make sure they hit the center of the club face and not blow drives off the planet…unless you’re Seve and possessed the greatest recovery game in the history of golf.

To me, the greatest argument for a rollback of the ball, or at the very least bifurcation for the professional and top amateur game, is that the increase in distance means that we never would get to see a player like Lee Trevino because, despite his ballstriking, he simply would not be long enough to succeed in the modern game. If the modern game cannot allow the genius of someone like Trevino to shine through, then something is fundamentally wrong.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 02:48:19 PM by BHoover »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #438 on: September 02, 2021, 03:21:40 PM »

So for example, base running and hitting line drive singles and doubles and fielding used to be more important in baseball, so those players 100 years ago did those things. Today it's more about home runs, so players learn to do those things.


Interesting comparison when you consider that Major League Baseball has, RATHER QUIETLY, tweaked the equipment almost annually for the past 15 or so years in some way or the other.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2930509-mlb-reportedly-making-changes-to-baseballs-to-control-home-run-rate
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/will-mlbs-altered-ball-change-2021-home-run-rate-heres-what-players-and-spring-stats-are-saying-about-it/
The height of the seams has also been tweaked.
Tennis slowed down the ball a few years ago.
Atb

« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 05:38:08 PM by Thomas Dai »

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #439 on: September 02, 2021, 05:01:03 PM »
Last Sunday's playoff really crystallized things for me. Is there any question that seeing Patrick Cantlay hole pressure-filled putt after putt was infinitely more impressive and thrilling than watching Bryson DeChambeau swing comically hard with a golf club equivalent of bowling lane bumpers? I mean, it's not even close.


+1


The crazy thing is that Bryson D finished the tournament 2nd in stroke gained putting (behind Cantlay obviously). 

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #440 on: September 02, 2021, 05:27:09 PM »
No one - certainly not me -  disputes the skills of the modern player. Techniques are surely both improved and less idiosyncratic - despite Furyk,DJ,Wolff and other obvious examples. They should be with video and trackman - and better teaching.


They are certainly no less skilled than the greats of past generations (which was my point) but I assume we can agree the modern player looks more impressive now because the equipment is so much easier to use. I watched a great 19-year old player do a Titleist fitting earlier this year and was looking for a 7 wood - but being a leftie couldn't get one. His bulbous 3 iron went high but he wanted one that went higher - hence asking for the 7 wood. Instead they gave him an even more bulbous 3 iron which immediately went noticeably higher.


The shots they hit are amazing - no doubt - and I dont doubt they could all play great golf with the clubs Nicklaus and Weiskopf (who was way more than a "good golfer") used - but I doubt the shots would be any more impressive than the shots those guys were hitting. Or Miller, Seve, Snead,Hogan, Trevino,Norman.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #441 on: September 02, 2021, 06:25:42 PM »
“But some of that is because the equipment has made it easier.  I do not believe there are 80 guys on Tour who could hit Jack Nicklaus' old driver the way Jack did.”

My point exactly




« Last Edit: September 02, 2021, 07:06:46 PM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #442 on: September 02, 2021, 06:44:33 PM »
No one - certainly not me -  disputes the skills of the modern player. Techniques are surely both improved and less idiosyncratic - despite Furyk,DJ,Wolff and other obvious examples. They should be with video and trackman - and better teaching.


They are certainly no less skilled than the greats of past generations (which was my point) but I assume we can agree the modern player looks more impressive now because the equipment is so much easier to use. I watched a great 19-year old player do a Titleist fitting earlier this year and was looking for a 7 wood - but being a leftie couldn't get one. His bulbous 3 iron went high but he wanted one that went higher - hence asking for the 7 wood. Instead they gave him an even more bulbous 3 iron which immediately went noticeably higher.


The shots they hit are amazing - no doubt - and I dont doubt they could all play great golf with the clubs Nicklaus and Weiskopf (who was way more than a "good golfer") used - but I doubt the shots would be any more impressive than the shots those guys were hitting. Or Miller, Seve, Snead,Hogan, Trevino,Norman.


This is backtracking your statement a bit.


It’s like saying Lewis Hamilton wouldn’t be able to drive a Model T any more impressively than any race driver of that era.


Well duh. You’re not saying much.


The other implied conclusion of your original statement is that given modern equipment those guys would probably be regularly shooting in the 50s.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #443 on: September 02, 2021, 06:57:33 PM »
Kyle


In the article I said no one will convince me the modern guys are superior athletes to Snead,Nicklaus,Seve,Weiskopf. They just aren't. We can argue all day about quality of fields but at 60,61 and 62 years old Snead was 4th,9th and 3rd in the PGA Championship. That's one hell of an athlete.


And why would Hamilton drive more impressively than Fangio - who drove every day with the fear of death as did his contemporaries.
The analogy is perhaps relevant to golf - the older equipment surely had players more on the edge the the modern stuff. When we the last time you saw a real duck hook?


And I certainly never implied those old guys would be shooting in the 50s.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #444 on: September 02, 2021, 07:57:45 PM »
Kyle


In the article I said no one will convince me the modern guys are superior athletes to Snead,Nicklaus,Seve,Weiskopf. They just aren't. We can argue all day about quality of fields but at 60,61 and 62 years old Snead was 4th,9th and 3rd in the PGA Championship. That's one hell of an athlete.


And why would Hamilton drive more impressively than Fangio - who drove every day with the fear of death as did his contemporaries.
The analogy is perhaps relevant to golf - the older equipment surely had players more on the edge the the modern stuff. When we the last time you saw a real duck hook?


And I certainly never implied those old guys would be shooting in the 50s.


You did though. If modern golfers are not superior, athletically, to Nicklaus, et. al. nor must they use the same shots/tool box as Nicklaus, et. al. then in giving a Nicklaus in his prime a modern tool set, it follows quite clearly that he would be shooting some rather ridiculously low numbers.


As for the duck hook? I’ll plead the 5th.  ;D
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #445 on: September 02, 2021, 08:30:30 PM »
I will let Mike Clayton argue with you on this point, since he participates here.  He loves to put persimmon clubs in the hands of young players to see what they can do.
Nobody (that I know of) is saying they'd instantly be better. But Dustin Johnson hit Jack's old 1-iron and driver or something, too, and hit them pretty far pretty quickly. Different skills are not "less skilled."

Give a modern tennis player a wood framed racket and they'd struggle (for them) for a bit. Give them enough time and they'd begin to show off.

But Mike is not the only one who has said to me that Norman's big advantage back in his prime, and certainly Nicklaus's big advantage in his prime, was being able to consistently hit their drivers at something close to full speed, which most other players back then [even Tour players] did not do very consistently at all.
You could also take that to say… "players back then weren't as skilled."  :)

I do not believe there are 80 guys on Tour who could hit Jack Nicklaus' old driver the way Jack did.
But Tom, there only have to be about two guys who could do it for those guys to be "just as" or "more skilled," no?  ;D  I think that, given a little while to learn how to hit it, that there are more than two or three guys who could do it.


Second, if Tiger had been born 50 years earlier, his skill still would have shown itself. Yes, there are other factors like access to the game, but based purely on skill, Tiger would have been Tiger.
Born 50 years earlier, Tiger would have won significantly more often, given that he'd be playing against club pros, far fewer international players, etc.

Another post made the point that the advantage the great drivers like Nicklaus and Norman had was the ability to hit the center of the club face with a high-spin ball at full speed. Even most good ballstrikers had to dial back their swing to make sure they hit the center of the club face and not blow drives off the planet…unless you’re Seve and possessed the greatest recovery game in the history of golf.
Again, this tracks with golfers back then not being as skilled.  ;)

To me, the greatest argument for a rollback of the ball, or at the very least bifurcation for the professional and top amateur game, is that the increase in distance means that we never would get to see a player like Lee Trevino because, despite his ballstriking, he simply would not be long enough to succeed in the modern game. If the modern game cannot allow the genius of someone like Trevino to shine through, then something is fundamentally wrong.
Lee was less than ten yards shorter than Jack in the 1980 driving distance stats. Lee probably wouldn't succeed today because he hit the ball pretty low. Lee was comfortably top half (and nearly top third) in driving distance in 1980: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1980.html.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #446 on: September 02, 2021, 08:33:10 PM »
59 years old and have a handicap that hasn’t changed in the last 25 to 30 years. I hit my jacked up 790’s the same distance I hit my 1989 ping eye 2’s. I hit my driver straighter and farther than I ever did with my original Taylor metal driver. I can’t imagine what I would shoot with my old equipment and a balata ball. My scores say my skills are the same. No way.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

jeffwarne

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Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #447 on: September 02, 2021, 10:28:08 PM »
Actually a pretty good thread...
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #448 on: September 03, 2021, 12:32:36 AM »
Kyle


In the article I said no one will convince me the modern guys are superior athletes to Snead,Nicklaus,Seve,Weiskopf. They just aren't. We can argue all day about quality of fields but at 60,61 and 62 years old Snead was 4th,9th and 3rd in the PGA Championship. That's one hell of an athlete.


And why would Hamilton drive more impressively than Fangio - who drove every day with the fear of death as did his contemporaries.
The analogy is perhaps relevant to golf - the older equipment surely had players more on the edge the the modern stuff. When we the last time you saw a real duck hook?


And I certainly never implied those old guys would be shooting in the 50s.


You did though. If modern golfers are not superior, athletically, to Nicklaus, et. al. nor must they use the same shots/tool box as Nicklaus, et. al. then in giving a Nicklaus in his prime a modern tool set, it follows quite clearly that he would be shooting some rather ridiculously low numbers.


As for the duck hook? I’ll plead the 5th.  ;D


No modern golfer is athletically superior to Nicklaus or Snead. Equal, yes. Superior no.  Tiger aside. In my opinion.
Who knows what Jack would score - like Tiger he scored what he had to and raised his game accordingly.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rollback alliance
« Reply #449 on: September 03, 2021, 01:24:05 AM »
Who knows what Jack would score - like Tiger he scored what he had to and raised his game accordingly.


Jack also had the uncanny ability to predict the winning score for a major tournament and often played with the idea that the field would come back to him.  I have long thought that he had so many second-place finishes because he did what he thought he needed to and sometimes was wrong.


He even said something about it a few years ago and there were a lot of Internet experts who thought he was just jealous of Tiger.


They were very different in their approach, one never (almost) won from behind, and the other set a record for runner-up finishes in majors that will never be equaled IMHO.  FWIW, he had 19 while Arnold and Phil had that many combined.  Tiger has had seven.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010