Rollback alliance

[Mike_Clayton]

Mike,


The Pro Traj was not introduced until 1975. When I speak of good players hitting the ball 150 yds off line I was talking about my friends who were very fine athletes outside of golf.  It's like marking telephone poles after a flood. I can show you where flood water has reached that defies all common sense and engineering principles. Sadly I can also show you where friends of mine hit golf shots of the same remarkable caliber. It's one of the beauties of playing the same course for over 50 years.

Maybe - but the Titleist 1973 ball was also pretty good I assume. And do we think if the Pro Traj had been available in 1973 at Troon the American pros would have chosen it over the small ball?

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny that we are talking about might have beens at a tournament where Gene Sarazen had a hole in one. I am personally amazed that the American pros could go overseas and play a ball "25 yds longer" and dominate in the manner that they did. Perhaps that had as much to do with going to a standardized ball as anything. The ole, if we can't beat em, join em paradigm.


What would be interesting to know would be how much money was brought into the European game by Americanizing the sport. It just feels like someone and possibly everyone got paid to go to the bigger ball.

[Matthew Mollica]

Jim Hoak, Bryan Izatt & others,


Rob Rigg has mentioned a variable distance ball in several posts now. You have both asked for clarification on a design that would deprive short hitters appreciably less distance than a Tour professional. I am like Rob, in that I believe such a design exists, and that manufacturers are able to mass produce and market this model - perhaps we call it the Zapruder ball for the time being.


Here is an excerpt from an article by Golf Digest writer Mike Stachura written in 2018 -


"The rule-makers haven’t offered a timetable for making a decision on a potential rollback, but they have been studying shorter-flying prototype golf balls since 2005. Golf Digest obtained samples of one of the prototype balls and tested it at four swing speeds: the ball lost 22 - 32 yards at 120 and 105 miles per hour and 7 - 10 yards at 90 and 75mph."

Link to the full article is here - https://newzealandgolfdigest.co.nz/distance-debate-mike-stachura/

Matthew

[John Kavanaugh]

Matthew,


Do you understand the difference between a pro at 120 mph swing speed and me at 90? They can far afford to lose 32 yds off their drives than I can 10. That ball is a mitigated disaster and most likely a plant to deter a rollback.

[Matthew Mollica]

John, recreational / amateur golfers may well move up a set of tees as part of a rollback.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, recreational / amateur golfers may well move up a set of tees as part of a rollback.

The 90-75 mph swing speeds already have moved up.

[David_Elvins]

Matthew,


Do you understand the difference between a pro at 120 mph swing speed and me at 90? They can far afford to lose 32 yds off their drives than I can 10. That ball is a mitigated disaster and most likely a plant to deter a rollback.

I swing at 100 mile an hour and I lose 25 yards on my drive (carry) by playing in the morning in winter.  I have no idea how far any given drive goes.  If I lost 10-15 yards due to the ball I doubt I would be even able to tell.

[John Kavanaugh]

Funny thing happened this week. One of my playing partners has been scoring and winning quite well lately and told me that he followed my advice. He said that he went to the range and spent some time figuring out exactly how far he hits each club, primarily his wedges. I couldn't believe a scratch golfer over a lifetime of some 40 playing years had never done that before.


Perhaps there are legions of golfers out there just swiping at the ball with no idea how far any shot goes from day to day. They don't deserve to have voice in the rollback discussion. Nothing gets better legislating to ignorance.


Here is how it is going to go. The rollback alliance will scare avid golfers into bifurcation because it's seen as a win/win. Once we accept that we no longer play the same ball as the pros the flood gates will open allowing recreational golfers the opportunity to play even longer balls. 90 mph swings speeds will hit the new hot amateur ball the 280 yds they only think they hit it now.


So there you have it. A bifurcated game where amateurs hit it even further than they do now. Be careful what you ask for.

[JESII]

Nah...if bifurcation were the chosen route, it would be temporary by default.


The wanna be's would all play the "approved" equipment and their buddies would follow suit. Before long you wont be able to get a game unless you play the approved stuff.


Still not the best course...but certainly not a big deal.


Either forget about the TV guys or roll everything back 20% so we can see the TV guys play the best courses...


Oh, and maybe save a little water along the way...

[JMEvensky]

The wanna be's would all play the "approved" equipment and their buddies would follow suit. Before long you wont be able to get a game unless you play the approved stuff.

The Goodale theory of bifurcation leading back to unification.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm 59 years old and follow golf exclusively  on my phone. Do you really believe that televised golf will play a role in this issue in 10 years. Wanna see a great course? Follow Cavalier on Instagram.

[Kalen Braley]

John, recreational / amateur golfers may well move up a set of tees as part of a rollback.

The 90-75 mph swing speeds already have moved up.

Bullocks John,

If anything , they keep moving back, this is a big part of the problem

I've never seen anyone other than very old men, women, and kids play the up tees...it just simply never happens...

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


If you only look in the bowels of society you are going to see shit.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


If you only look in the bowels of society you are going to see shit.

Hilarious John, another groan-worthy pun to deflect the fact that you're actually full of shit... 

[John Kavanaugh]

All I'm saying is that at the top 1000 finest private courses in the country 90-75 mph swing speeds have moved up. If not they would be escorted off the course.

[Eric Smith]

I've never seen anyone other than very old men, women, and kids play the up tees...it just simply never happens...

How often are you getting out to play? I'm quite certain John is out there in the trenches every day.

[Garland Bayley]

Because of multiple sets of tees the distance I hit my drive is immaterial. The distance I have to carry hazards is not. Currently my maximum carry off a tight level lie in ideal conditions is 195 yds with a 5 wood. Cut that by 10 yds and my strategic options will be greatly limited. Throw in some wind and you have to ask yourself the sustainability of courses built after 1960. We made our bed now we've got to sleep in it.

Perhaps hit a 3 wood?

The old wind bag can't get a 3 wood airborne.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,


I carry a two wood that carries less far in the air than my five wood. After careful reflection back on my golfing life I am confident that anytime that I try to carry a hazard more than 200 yds out I benefit by laying up. If I lay up to 70 yds I have a 50% chance of making par with bogey being my highest score 98% of the time. Trying to carry a hazard more than 200 yds does not improve my par chances and brings double bogey into play at a minimum of 40% of the time. Please note that I do not keep stats and these numbers are at a primal level.


I do promise than anyone besides the finest golfers would score lower over their lifetime if they follow the above advice. Sadly it takes some age, humility and a well worn wallet to reach that conclusion.

[Brian Walshe]

Couple of points here.  Firstly the winner out of a roll back would be Titleist.  At some point all the balls in circulation would need to be replaced even the rebirthed second hand ones so I'd expect ball sales to increase for a number of years after a lull when the change is announced.  If you are like me you have a few dozen balls "in stock" that you'd need to use up so that might slow things for a few months.


Secondly to John's concern about losing 10yds.  As Dave points out there is probably more than 10yds of variation between drives now and adding a new tee for slower swing speeds is going to be a lot cheaper than buying land to build a new tee 30yds further back because the ball keeps getting longer and an increasing number of players, particularly younger ones, have high swing speeds. 


For all the fixation on distance, and the massive amount of money golfers spend chasing it,  I'm pretty sure it hasn't resulted in many 12 markers playing off scratch.  It's sold a lot of gear, made Wally and others pretty rich, yet the average handicap hasn't moved.  The crux of the argument is simple.  It's much cheaper, easier and more sustainable to make the game of golf a little shorter than have it continually getting longer.

[Mike_Clayton]

Funny that we are talking about might have beens at a tournament where Gene Sarazen had a hole in one. I am personally amazed that the American pros could go overseas and play a ball "25 yds longer" and dominate in the manner that they did. Perhaps that had as much to do with going to a standardized ball as anything. The ole, if we can't beat em, join em paradigm.


What would be interesting to know would be how much money was brought into the European game by Americanizing the sport. It just feels like someone and possibly everyone got paid to go to the bigger ball.

A hole on one with a 5 iron on a 125 yard hole.
The American small ball winning pros in the 70s - Nicklaus,Trevino,Weiskopf dominated because they were the best players in the world at the time. It was hardly surprising they won.
The rise of European golf was dependent on their best young players of the next generation - Seve et al -  learning to compete with the big ball and by the end of the decade Seve had won The Open. So in that sense, you're right. Their brilliance bought a lot of money into European golf.

[jeffwarne]

  It's sold a lot of gear, made Wally and others pretty rich, yet the average handicap hasn't moved.  The crux of the argument is simple.  It's much cheaper, easier and more sustainable to make the game of golf a little shorter than have it continually getting longer.

bingo

[Mark_F]

I wonder what the rollbackers think of this.
"Hogan’s Alley” The sixth hole on the Championship Course was officially renamed on Wednesday 24th September 2003 as Hogan’s Alley by our 1999 Open Champion, Paul Lawrie.  To commemorate Ben Hogan’s feat in 1953, today’s professionals were invited to take part in a longest drive competition using a 1953 driver and old 1.62 golf balls. The winner was Arjun Atwal with a drive of 251 yards. Other notable entries were Paul Lawrie 245 yards, Adam Scott 231 yards, Vijay Singh 219 yards, Colin Montgomerie 203 yards and Sam Torrance 200 yards."

[Mark_F]

adding a new tee for slower swing speeds is going to be a lot cheaper than buying land to build a new tee 30yds further back because the ball keeps getting longer

I never thought I would see such a histrionic response from a man of your stature, Brian.  How many Sandbelt and Heathland courses have had to buy land to extend their courses?

For all the fixation on distance, and the massive amount of money golfers spend chasing it,  I'm pretty sure it hasn't resulted in many 12 markers playing off scratch.  It's sold a lot of gear, made Wally and others pretty rich, yet the average handicap hasn't moved.

There are other variables at play that are just as likely to have led to handicap levels not changing much.  It's a poor argument that better equipment hasn't lowered handicaps.

You blokes need to stop hanging around with each other so much - you all sound the same. 

[Brian Walshe]

Mark,


December will be a bit of a tipping point.  When the President's Cup is played at RM people will see how much the game has changed.  RM has no more land to push tee's back.  Unless the ball is rolled back they will need to start buying land if they want to remain relevant.  Likewise I'm not sure how much further Kingston Heath can be stretched (they have just added new back tees on 11 and 18).


How many Sandbelt and Heathland courses have had to add back tees?  How many can continue to add length before they run out of land?

[Matthew Mollica]

Mark, I can’t speak about the London heathlands, however I can comment on the Melbourne Sandbelt.


Kingston Heath has acquired multiple properties on the perimeter of the course, which made sense from a boundary safety perspective. Since I first played there more than 20 years ago, holes 2,6,11,12,13 & 18 have new back tees, and there are possibly more holes that do (14 & 16?). The new tees in 2 & 13 could not have been added should boundaries not have been extended. The course still plays quite short for elite amateur competition, much less Tour pro events.


Yarra Yarra is hopelessly troubled by boundary issues.


Royal Melbourne has been stretched significantly. East and West. The Club purchased a property beyond the original course boundary, and in recent years has extended the 15th tee onto what was a neighbouring residential property as recently as 2015. Dr John Green’s residence was purchased, the old home demolished, and much of the block now serves as a safety buffer from errant long second shots into the second green in East.


Driving ranges at KH, Commonwealth, Metropolitan are all too small to function as they did 25 years ago, much less as they were intended at the time of design.


Several clubs have incurred significant cost in erecting safety fences and nets on their periphery. God knows what insurance premiums Woodlands deal with, due to balls going onto White Street off holes 1 & 2. Same with Victoria on holes 2 & 3.


The issue might be more significant than you think. And that’s to say nothing of a loss of strategic intent.


Matt