[Erik J. Barzeski]

Chautauqua Golf Club has two courses. The Lake Course dates back over 100 years and was designed by Donald Ross. The Hill Course was designed in the 80s or so by someone far less famous.

The sixth on the Hill is a 392/342/336/263-yard par four with a bunker in the left rough from 40 to 60 yards from the center of the green. The nearest point of the bunker is just under 25 yards from the front edge of the green.

Here's a photo from Google Earth:


Here's a photo from ground level:


So, not only is the bunker 335 yards from the back tees and 200 yards from the forward tees, it's five+ yards into the rough, surrounded by trees, and… has a tree or two between the bunker and the green, which is at most 60 yards away (back edge of the bunker to the center of the green) and as short as 25 yards away.

Has anyone seen a dumber bunker anywhere else?

[Ira Fishman]

Erik,


Given your length off the tee, did you hit in there?


Ira

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Given your length off the tee, did you hit in there?

No, the miss on this hole is to the right, and even if you do miss left, the trees short of the bunker usually stop the ball first.

Honestly I almost forgot that bunker was even there until we played from the forward tees for a junior camp and one of the kids hit their second shot nearby (just short and right).

[Tommy Williamsen]

Maybe it is the world's dumbest tree and the fairway should extend to the bunker. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Maybe it is the world's dumbest tree and the fairway should extend to the bunker.

I considered that, but the bunker being 335 yards off the tee (and 275 off the middle tees) and 40-60 yards from the center of the green led me to lean toward a dumb bunker instead of a dumb tree. 

[Ken Moum]

Maybe it is the world's dumbest tree and the fairway should extend to the bunker.

I considered that, but the bunker being 335 yards off the tee (and 275 off the middle tees) and 40-60 yards from the center of the green led me to lean toward a dumb bunker instead of a dumb tree. 

Erik,


Use the historical image slider on Google Earth and go back to the USGS picture from 1994.


It's pretty fuzzy, but things were VERY different then.


And lots of dumb features have been added to golf courses by people who didn't know what they were doing.


K

[Martin Lehmann]

A bunker that hasn't a function, with regard to game strategy, targeting or safety, is dumb by definition. Bunkers that are merely there for 'aesthetics' and to impress golf course owners during construction (later on they will be less impressed when they are confronted with maintenance costs of these bunkers) in my view are the most stupid things to be found on golf courses. And there are millions of those...

[Jon Wiggett]

This bunker is a stroke of genius. It makes finding the ball easy as apposed to having to search the rough for it. Also its design has taken the tree into account. Note how the architect has kept the lip extremely low so as to allow a player to hit a low bunker shot below the tree branches to the green. A hazard that speeds up play and gives option. I say bravo 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Waterwood National in Texas (NLE) which I thought was a great course had a bunker that extended from the green to BEHIND THE TEE....i guess it was part of the blend.

[Kyle Harris]

So often we look at these features in the context of either our own game or in the sense of an "ideal" play.

There was a bunker left of #6 at Huntingdon Valley that was about as this one was described in relation to the tee. Well out of range of most any tee shot and well left of some ideal play corridor.


However.


Once you realized that the lay of the land pulled/bounced/rolled tee shots left this bunker began to interrupt an approach from a slightly overcooked hook off the tee - so much so that it became a top shot bunker and emphasized the difficulty of approach the green from the left.


There are no dumb bunkers. Just dumb players who find them.

[Tom_Doak]

I can't even see the pictures you have posted on my phone, so I am not operating will full information, but what is wrong with the idea of a bunker that's 40 to 60 yards from the middle of the green?  That's about the only length of shot where a very good player would rather NOT be in the sand.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I can't even see the pictures you have posted on my phone, so I am not operating will full information, but what is wrong with the idea of a bunker that's 40 to 60 yards from the middle of the green?  That's about the only length of shot where a very good player would rather NOT be in the sand.

I agree on the difficulty of the shot. But it’s also basically unreachable off the tee and surrounded by trees… including between the bunker and the green.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Use the historical image slider on Google Earth and go back to the USGS picture from 1994.

It's pretty fuzzy, but things were VERY different then.

I did. The bunker is still there. The trees are of course much smaller (not that you can see them), but the bunker is also still 325-335 yards off the back tees, and 200 or so from the forward tees. It's still a bunker.

So I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Do you see it differently? I still see the bunker.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I can't even see the pictures you have posted on my phone, so I am not operating will full information, but what is wrong with the idea of a bunker that's 40 to 60 yards from the middle of the green?  That's about the only length of shot where a very good player would rather NOT be in the sand.

Tom,
     It fits into what Charles Price once called the poor "double negative" of golf design.  The line from the bunker to the green is directly blocked by a large and wide tree.  Either the tree should not have been planted or the bunker should not have been placed there.

[Sean_A]

There are no dumb bunkers. Just dumb players who find them.

This is very true.  However, there are well placed and not so well placed bunkers. More to the point, there are bunkers which are dumb to spend money for maintenance.   

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

There are no dumb bunkers. Just dumb players who find them.

This is very true.  However, there are well placed and not so well placed bunkers. More to the point, there are bunkers which are dumb to spend money for maintenance.   

Ciao

I disagree, Kyle. I played the Straits Course at Whistling Straits last week... there are 800-900 “dumb” bunkers on the course scattered all over the property just for visual effect (I guess). I liked the layout, but scratched my head on every hole about the hundreds of bizarrely placed bunkers.


I’m a South Carolinian and a fan of fellow South Carolinian Dustin Johnson, so maybe that influenced my thoughts? 

[Don Mahaffey]

Tradition is a strong influence.  If not for it, anyone building a sand pit in heavy soils lined with concrete and filled with $150 ton sand shipped from hundreds of miles away would be considered beyond dumb. Contour is so much better for the game in heavy soil high rainfall climates.  But it’s harder to be artistic without bunkers so we do really dumb things and use tradition as a reason.

[Ryan Coles]

Very true Don.


What are the best examples you can cite of courses on heavy soils who have gone down this more sensible route?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Erik,


It seems to have been a mantra of this site that bunkers placed by mere "formula" of having it come into play, etc. is to be "cryte don upon" and random bunkering to be exhalted. 


That said, in the real world, given cost, any bunker that sees only a few shots a month (as this one probably does) and has not other function is likely to be NLE sooner rather than later.  So, yes, it seems dumb. 


Lastly, I think Tom D is pretty much alone in thinking placing bunkers where they offer extreme difficulty from 60 yards is a good use.  While his point about good players is valid,

when considering all factors, using hazards to distinguish between par and bogey is a much better use of hazards.  M

ost of us wouldn't waste the construction resources to punish someone who has already missed the green by 60 yards.  The 50% chance of making bogey is plenty of self inflicted penalty and it is more likely (other than perhaps on a par 5) that it would only see use by average players, and turn a bogey into a double bogey. 

Having said all that,

I am almost as certain that someone on this website of architecture geeks will find a dumber one, and I would have been more judicious in selecting a superlative.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I am almost as certain that someone on this website of architecture geeks will find a dumber one, and I would have been more judicious in selecting a superlative.

Agreed that "dumbest" isn't great. But it was late, and I wanted to get it posted. 

I'm also eagerly awaiting the "dumber" bunkers out there, and look forward to seeing them. But I feel like this is a top 16 contender… 

I remember one, about 30 yards in front of the 12th tee (back tees) at The Old Course, that I asked my caddie about. I said "who hits it into that bunker?" It wasn't in play for the 7th hole, IIRC. But his answer was simply "you'd be surprised." I asked about the minimum handicap, and he laughed and said that the minimum handicap was "the greens fee." I got his point. He then proceeded to tell me that he's caddied for Japanese or Korean guys who tell him "this is my first time on an actual golf course."

[Jeff_Brauer]

Erik,


Yes, I think we would all be surprised at who gets in bunkers.  After we redid the Champions Course at La Costa, I have played with press, hacks, and women, including my wife.  I found that fw bunkers designed to challenge the 290 back tee shot did in fact challenge the D players, only it was on their second (or third) shot. 


Since then, I have been very judicious in my use of sand bunkers.  After a brief infatuation with the so called "fore bunkers" and other variations of random bunkering, I have cut my total bunkering square footage from 100,000-120,000 SF per course about in half.

[jeffwarne]

It might be some dumb rough, or a dumb tree...
I played with a guy today who hit driving iron, LW(from 90 yards) to a 430 yard par 4 so he might consider avoiding that bunker.


To be fair, I think at least 50% of the bunkers on inland courses are dumb

[astavrides]

Tradition is a strong influence.  If not for it, anyone building a sand pit in heavy soils lined with concrete and filled with $150 ton sand shipped from hundreds of miles away would be considered beyond dumb. Contour is so much better for the game in heavy soil high rainfall climates.  But it’s harder to be artistic without bunkers so we do really dumb things and use tradition as a reason.

What is meant by contour?
Why are bunkers bad in heavy soils?
Not doubting what is said above, just trying to learn.

[Kyle Harris]

Tradition is a strong influence.  If not for it, anyone building a sand pit in heavy soils lined with concrete and filled with $150 ton sand shipped from hundreds of miles away would be considered beyond dumb. Contour is so much better for the game in heavy soil high rainfall climates.  But it’s harder to be artistic without bunkers so we do really dumb things and use tradition as a reason.

What is meant by contour?
Why are bunkers bad in heavy soils?
Not doubting what is said above, just trying to learn.

Not going to speak for Don here, Alex, but generally when you dig a hole in heavy soils it tends to collect water. Adding sand just puts whatever drainage you may have on the clock for infiltration of sand into the drainage system.

[Bernie Bell]

"Lastly, I think Tom D is pretty much alone in thinking placing bunkers where they offer extreme difficulty from 60 yards is a good use.  While his point about good players is valid, when considering all factors, using hazards to distinguish between par and bogey is a much better use of hazards.  Most of us wouldn't waste the construction resources to punish someone who has already missed the green by 60 yards.  The 50% chance of making bogey is plenty of self inflicted penalty and it is more likely (other than perhaps on a par 5) that it would only see use by average players, and turn a bogey into a double bogey."

At Four Streams, Mr. Smyers put bunkers 40-60 yard yards from center of green on at least 10 holes, maybe more depending on where you are in the bunker.  Probably similar number at Old Memorial. 

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/memberscfourstreams/holemap.htm?hole=1&next=overview.htm%231#

https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/oldmemorial/holemap.htm?hole=1&next=overview.htm%231#

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