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Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2019, 04:14:35 AM »
Tim the waste area on 5 at RSG was a flat area of hay that rarely came into play for decent golfers, the bunkering has stayed the same and a waste area replaces the rough. It speeds up play as there are fewer lost balls.


Other than that the left green side bunker on 17 has been replaced with a swale, the centre bunker on 18 at 300 yards has gone to tease the players into being more aggressive and right fairway bunker on 8 has gone and a new bunker built inside the remaining bunker. This pinches the drive and promotes laying up to leave a longer approach.


I cannot see anything at RSG that isn’t an improvement.


Having now seen the pictures of 17 at Swinley they do look on par with the changes on 17 at Walton Heath Old.


I’ll never win an argument on TOC, however the new bunkers on 2 look like they’ve been there 100 years. I like them and the Castle Course so I guess Tom Doak and I disagree on a couple of things!
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2019, 03:43:55 AM »
Sorry for the subject, but I feel like as a GCA community, we are asleep to what is happening in the UK&I at the moment.


To preface what I'm about to say, I need to give a bit of context. I love golf in the UK. I love the links courses, and heathland courses. From Scotland to England to Wales to N.I. and Ireland, there is so much quality, that I would happily play my golf here for the rest of my life and never complain....


So now that you know this doesn't come from a place of anger, but of concern, I need to ask: what the hell is happening to our great courses here in the UK?! While the pendulum in the US seems to have swayed back towards fun, playability, contoured greens, uniqueness, minimalism, naturalism, and originality, the UK is going in the other direction! It seems like up and down the coast, the best courses are getting assaulted by bad GCA work and bad GCA decisions, which is homogenising the best we have to offer. (Caveat: I am not trying to call out specific architects, and apologies if this seems like an assault on you). Some examples of things I have seen / heard:


- 20 yard wide fairways at North Berwick
- Remodelling of par-3s 8 & 17 at Swinley Forest
- Bunker work at Sunningdale Old, which looks like a cross between....who knows
- Green slope softening at places like St George's Hill
- General uninspiring and unoriginal work at places like Turnberry
- Making greens and holes at Royal Aberdeen more homogenous, most notably the 3rd.
- Bunker work at courses like The Old Course
- Won't mention Wentworth again...
- Praise of places like Adare Manor, which are the most unsustainable golf courses known to man.
- Consideration given to destroying beautiful original holes at Cruden Bay for 'championship' sake.


Ran and others beat the drum years ago, and at least had a hand in helping to educate about what good looks like in the US. Now, I feel like we are asleep here in the UK. And it's only set to get worse. As more and more who don't know better praise this work because it's new, more and more clubs will start to look at their neighbour and think 'We want some of that!'.


But are we really improving these courses? I don't think so. The only improvements I've seen at great courses is where a club has gone back to the original principle of what the course was when it opened: Alwoodley, Tandridge, and New Zealand (with bunker work) to name a few.


What's happening and what can we do? They say the first step to recovery is through acceptance. Can we accept that there is a lot of work happening at great golf courses around the UK that is not good?!


Which fairways at North Berwick are 20 yards wide?  Maybe on 14, but I can’t think of others.


James,


I actually think 14 is one of the wider fairways! I was specifically thinking of 3, 5, 8, 11, 12, 16 and 17. There may be points on those fairways that extend to 25 yards wide, but I have personally paced those fairways and seen 20/22 yard width.


The reason it doesn't stick out to most is that there is a very small semi-rough that borders the fairways on each side, at about 3-5 yards. So including this small semi rough, the fairways are closer to 30 yards (still tight tight tight!).

It is interesting to cast a critical eye on a course one loves. This recent trip the Senior AM was cited as the reason for narrow fairways as if that was OK.

The 3rd fairway looks idiotic because the very narrow cut lines don't fit into the natural contour available.

The cut line on #11 down the right on line with the bunkers is appalling.

The left side of 12 is a complete mess of ugly bunkers and again a shocking cut line.

The bunkers/cut line on #5 is awful.

I do find the fairway narrowing and bunker addition perplexing and highly disappointing. If the clubs want sand they should restore the sandy, beach rough area in the pit shy of the bank on #1.

While I want a simple presentation for the course, it makes sense to hit high notes when available.

On the positive side of the ledger, the greens are in much better nick than in most previous visits over the last 5 years. Honestly, we played after course closing rain and the greens were true and running. Excellent job on this front.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:49:49 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Angela Moser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2019, 02:18:44 PM »
Sorry for the subject, but I feel like as a GCA community, we are asleep to what is happening in the UK&I at the moment.


To preface what I'm about to say, I need to give a bit of context. I love golf in the UK. I love the links courses, and heathland courses. From Scotland to England to Wales to N.I. and Ireland, there is so much quality, that I would happily play my golf here for the rest of my life and never complain....


So now that you know this doesn't come from a place of anger, but of concern, I need to ask: what the hell is happening to our great courses here in the UK?! While the pendulum in the US seems to have swayed back towards fun, playability, contoured greens, uniqueness, minimalism, naturalism, and originality, the UK is going in the other direction! It seems like up and down the coast, the best courses are getting assaulted by bad GCA work and bad GCA decisions, which is homogenising the best we have to offer. (Caveat: I am not trying to call out specific architects, and apologies if this seems like an assault on you). Some examples of things I have seen / heard:


- 20 yard wide fairways at North Berwick
- Remodelling of par-3s 8 & 17 at Swinley Forest
- Bunker work at Sunningdale Old, which looks like a cross between....who knows
- Green slope softening at places like St George's Hill
- General uninspiring and unoriginal work at places like Turnberry
- Making greens and holes at Royal Aberdeen more homogenous, most notably the 3rd.
- Bunker work at courses like The Old Course
- Won't mention Wentworth again...
- Praise of places like Adare Manor, which are the most unsustainable golf courses known to man.
- Consideration given to destroying beautiful original holes at Cruden Bay for 'championship' sake.


Ran and others beat the drum years ago, and at least had a hand in helping to educate about what good looks like in the US. Now, I feel like we are asleep here in the UK. And it's only set to get worse. As more and more who don't know better praise this work because it's new, more and more clubs will start to look at their neighbour and think 'We want some of that!'.


But are we really improving these courses? I don't think so. The only improvements I've seen at great courses is where a club has gone back to the original principle of what the course was when it opened: Alwoodley, Tandridge, and New Zealand (with bunker work) to name a few.


What's happening and what can we do? They say the first step to recovery is through acceptance. Can we accept that there is a lot of work happening at great golf courses around the UK that is not good?!


Tim: I am not every day on this website, but your topic got my attention and when I read some of the answers I thought I contribute with my view on things. This problem is happening all over Europe and it is especially tragic when historic, cool, funky, outstanding places are choosing to work on their course, or with the wrong architect.
There are so many "architect xyz" specialists out there. It happenes to be the case that if they want to be the consultant for that other highly ranked course, over night they are becoming surprisingly an "architect zyx" specialist. Funny how it works and how easy someone is getting a specialist on something these days.


When I read your post the first time, I couldn't help thinking about my homeclub and how much everyone there is trying to be better than the course next door. It is all about Ranking, Leading, Instagram.... Marketing is the most important for the clubs to get good reviews and hopefully more interested golfers to PAY greenfees. They are absolutely dependant on the feedback of raters and reviewers (which most of the time play for free). There are not enough trash cans... not enough toilets...not enough sand... not the same sand in every bunker. So the club, because they want to get better, want to improve and make changes... mostly just on the wrong end imo. Those raters and reviewers and those people in charge of the club, dont have the architectural background most of the time. It is like back in the days when you hired the best player of your team to get feedback on bunkering etc. He travelled the most, so he must know it best.


In the past year I have been absolutely photobombed with wonderful pictures of fantastic places all around the world on my instagram account and I don't especially like how everyone is trying so hard to present themselves or how great their courses are. That being said, all these courses, maybe even a little hidden gem, that is not easy to get to, have gotten so much attention through tourists and instagram posts. I heard the rumors that playing the touristy spots in ireland gotten so expensive, that now that they raised the fees, people complain about it... but what would you do as a club? As an effect of more play and more feedback? At some point you will listen to what the visitors say and what should be done...


Clyde Johnson has become the consulting architect for Alwoodley. Good choice, as he is not hessistant to disagree and prevent the club to make some big mistakes. I hope he pics up more work... he will clearly be busy when the altered courses find out that they were butchered. That is my mission on the Continental European courses...


What surprises me the most through the renovated work that I see, is the point that most of them never touch a tree, or too few. Frank Pont said in a recent podcast that trees grow about 3% per year. They narrow the fairways, they affect the shots and the play, they affect the health of the turf. So why would you want to rebuild the bunkers on phase 1 of a renovation? Bunkers are the epitome of a certain look of a course. it is not about how it plays, it is about the look and the likes it generates... thats at least my pov

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2019, 08:45:06 AM »
Sorry for the subject, but I feel like as a GCA community, we are asleep to what is happening in the UK&I at the moment.


To preface what I'm about to say, I need to give a bit of context. I love golf in the UK. I love the links courses, and heathland courses. From Scotland to England to Wales to N.I. and Ireland, there is so much quality, that I would happily play my golf here for the rest of my life and never complain....


So now that you know this doesn't come from a place of anger, but of concern, I need to ask: what the hell is happening to our great courses here in the UK?! While the pendulum in the US seems to have swayed back towards fun, playability, contoured greens, uniqueness, minimalism, naturalism, and originality, the UK is going in the other direction! It seems like up and down the coast, the best courses are getting assaulted by bad GCA work and bad GCA decisions, which is homogenising the best we have to offer. (Caveat: I am not trying to call out specific architects, and apologies if this seems like an assault on you). Some examples of things I have seen / heard:


- 20 yard wide fairways at North Berwick
- Remodelling of par-3s 8 & 17 at Swinley Forest
- Bunker work at Sunningdale Old, which looks like a cross between....who knows
- Green slope softening at places like St George's Hill
- General uninspiring and unoriginal work at places like Turnberry
- Making greens and holes at Royal Aberdeen more homogenous, most notably the 3rd.
- Bunker work at courses like The Old Course
- Won't mention Wentworth again...
- Praise of places like Adare Manor, which are the most unsustainable golf courses known to man.
- Consideration given to destroying beautiful original holes at Cruden Bay for 'championship' sake.


Ran and others beat the drum years ago, and at least had a hand in helping to educate about what good looks like in the US. Now, I feel like we are asleep here in the UK. And it's only set to get worse. As more and more who don't know better praise this work because it's new, more and more clubs will start to look at their neighbour and think 'We want some of that!'.


But are we really improving these courses? I don't think so. The only improvements I've seen at great courses is where a club has gone back to the original principle of what the course was when it opened: Alwoodley, Tandridge, and New Zealand (with bunker work) to name a few.


What's happening and what can we do? They say the first step to recovery is through acceptance. Can we accept that there is a lot of work happening at great golf courses around the UK that is not good?!


Tim: I am not every day on this website, but your topic got my attention and when I read some of the answers I thought I contribute with my view on things. This problem is happening all over Europe and it is especially tragic when historic, cool, funky, outstanding places are choosing to work on their course, or with the wrong architect.
There are so many "architect xyz" specialists out there. It happenes to be the case that if they want to be the consultant for that other highly ranked course, over night they are becoming surprisingly an "architect zyx" specialist. Funny how it works and how easy someone is getting a specialist on something these days.


When I read your post the first time, I couldn't help thinking about my homeclub and how much everyone there is trying to be better than the course next door. It is all about Ranking, Leading, Instagram.... Marketing is the most important for the clubs to get good reviews and hopefully more interested golfers to PAY greenfees. They are absolutely dependant on the feedback of raters and reviewers (which most of the time play for free). There are not enough trash cans... not enough toilets...not enough sand... not the same sand in every bunker. So the club, because they want to get better, want to improve and make changes... mostly just on the wrong end imo. Those raters and reviewers and those people in charge of the club, dont have the architectural background most of the time. It is like back in the days when you hired the best player of your team to get feedback on bunkering etc. He travelled the most, so he must know it best.


In the past year I have been absolutely photobombed with wonderful pictures of fantastic places all around the world on my instagram account and I don't especially like how everyone is trying so hard to present themselves or how great their courses are. That being said, all these courses, maybe even a little hidden gem, that is not easy to get to, have gotten so much attention through tourists and instagram posts. I heard the rumors that playing the touristy spots in ireland gotten so expensive, that now that they raised the fees, people complain about it... but what would you do as a club? As an effect of more play and more feedback? At some point you will listen to what the visitors say and what should be done...


Clyde Johnson has become the consulting architect for Alwoodley. Good choice, as he is not hessistant to disagree and prevent the club to make some big mistakes. I hope he pics up more work... he will clearly be busy when the altered courses find out that they were butchered. That is my mission on the Continental European courses...


What surprises me the most through the renovated work that I see, is the point that most of them never touch a tree, or too few. Frank Pont said in a recent podcast that trees grow about 3% per year. They narrow the fairways, they affect the shots and the play, they affect the health of the turf. So why would you want to rebuild the bunkers on phase 1 of a renovation? Bunkers are the epitome of a certain look of a course. it is not about how it plays, it is about the look and the likes it generates... thats at least my pov


Angela,

Thank you for posting, and agree with your post wholeheartedly! I do hope you, Clyde and others that know better get jobs at great courses moving forward, as I know we can rest knowing that unnecessary work won't be done just to keep up with the neighbour, and that the unique, wonderful features of courses won't be lost for fairness' sake. Alwoodley is a testament to what happens when a course goes in the right direction.


Looking forward to seeing St Patricks when it's completed!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2019, 09:20:00 AM »
I hope they don't change Cruden Bay.
Mr Hurricane

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2019, 09:23:34 AM »
Perhaps it is a response to the ever increasing number of people playing these courses?
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2019, 09:40:00 AM »
I'm with you Tim. There seems to be a crisis in confidence in Clubs at the moment. Courses which hadn't been touched in years are suddenly developing an addiction to the knife. 


At Deal the work on 10 is a response to the pro's scoring at less than 3.5 in Open Qualifying. All the new bunkers down the left hand side are what Simpson called Lighthouses. One has even been added where one had been previously removed. Next time the pro's play it it will probably average even lower.  About 5 years ago 16 was changed  to a Par 4 and now its back to a 5.  3 is now a five and I predict it going back to a 4 - its a much better hole that way.




I know you can't stand still but it seems like its all the above factors - plus the extra distance the ball goes. This mainly a feature where clubs are already doing reasonably well and want to keep ahead of their rivals. At the highest levels this involves serious M&E work to be really attractive to the R&A.




Sadly I don't see it stopping any time soon. Clubs will see the improvements at Portrush as showing them what can be achieved and no course is safe.


[size=78%]PS Good luck Clyde in doing as little as needed. Not your fault you are the third '[/size]adviser[size=78%]' (that I know of) that the Club has employed in the past Decade.[/size]
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2019, 01:20:58 PM »
Firstly, thanks Angela for the well considered post and well done to Clyde for securing the Alwoodley brief.
Secondly, "keeping up with the Jones'" is not unusual and in these days of camera 'phones etc with social media flashing photos and videos of projects and workmanship around the world in seconds it is easy to be ensnared by the desire to do something, anything just to keep up.
To paraphrase something I heard on a recent Podcast, improvement can often be easily and cheaply achieved just by adjusting the mowing lines and taking out a few trees.

atb

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2019, 03:42:09 PM »
Yes, congratulations Clyde on getting the Alwoodley gig. This could be the opportunity really to put yourself on the map as a golf course architect in your own right.


Is there any suggestion that the club was unhappy with Ken Moodie’s work? It seems to have generally been very well received - indeed it could be argued that it was Ken’s work at Alwoodley and Moortown that elevated him to the higher ranks of golf architects.





« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 03:44:02 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Angela Moser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2019, 04:39:11 PM »
Firstly, thanks Angela for the well considered post and well done to Clyde for securing the Alwoodley brief.
Secondly, "keeping up with the Jones'" is not unusual and in these days of camera 'phones etc with social media flashing photos and videos of projects and workmanship around the world in seconds it is easy to be ensnared by the desire to do something, anything just to keep up.
To paraphrase something I heard on a recent Podcast, improvement can often be easily and cheaply achieved just by adjusting the mowing lines and taking out a few trees.

atb


absolutely agree... but just adjusting the mowing lines and taking out trees would make most architects earn less money.

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2019, 09:47:17 AM »
Interesting points Tim. I don't like some of the bunker work we've done at Sunningdale (though in general the tree clearance has been very good, especially on the New).  I do believe there are plans to re-do the bunkers which were only just done on 18 Old and I also believe that the previous consulting architect is retiring and as such we are looking for someone new - though I fear it won't be the sort of person I would go for.

Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2019, 05:52:46 PM »
Thanks for bringing this subject up Tim.


I've tended to reserve any public critique to myself, at least while I patiently build-up a body of work of my own that would stand-up to the same standards. That might take a little longer, as I prefer to leave things 'well alone' unless there is a really compelling case against. Thankfully, choosing to shape design ideas myself means there is less financial necessity to 'improve' things which might not need so. 


Anyway, it is always easier to critique (or propose improvements) than it is to execute...and there in lies the big problem!


Homogenisation should be a big concern. The repetitive nature of recent work might be as much down to the same contractors (and consultants) carrying out (and influencing) the work as it is the same architects directing the work!? Of course the majority of our great courses have evolved over the years, yet they've still maintained a uniqueness...I'm not sure that's something we need to be risking?


...

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2020, 08:55:00 AM »
The new 'Rushes' hole at Hoylake has been shot via a drone, and can be seen here via @sd_cooper:


https://twitter.com/sd_cooper/status/1229516932728131585


I'd genuinely be interested to know what others think of this hole. On the one hand, it looks quite sensational. What appears to be an infinity green against a sea background, with large blow-out bunkers and sandy paths, I must say it looks quite good.


And yet. It also feels incongruent with the rest of the golf course. On a links course known for its subtlety, this feels overdone and not at all in-line with the character of the rest of the course. After going 16 holes, without seeing anything remotely as dramatic, it feels like it might jar.


Maybe I have it wrong. I'd love to get others thoughts.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 08:57:29 AM by Tim Gallant »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2020, 10:42:25 AM »
Irrespective of its merits as an individual hole it looks like a bottleneck area for players (and occasional spectators). And when r/h big slicers are playing the hole in a wind from the left and against .........
atb

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2020, 02:30:11 PM »
It’s shorter than I expected it to be - just 143 yards from the back tee.  Perhaps there is going to be a Championship tee as well that’s not shown in the video, but I actually hope not.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2020, 03:21:57 PM »
17 holes Hoylake, 1 hole Mammoth Dunes.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2020, 05:06:14 PM »
Homogeneous and incongruous at the same time. Interesting stuff.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:09:38 PM by Ryan Coles »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2020, 05:17:16 PM »
And to think that once upon a time Hoylake had a par-3 with a Cop and OB immediately adjacent to the left side of the hole and green. Alas no more.
Atb
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 05:26:49 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2020, 06:20:25 PM »
Homogeneous and incongruous at the same time. Interesting stuff.


A good and truthful observation, despite your  distaste at the bitterness of some reviewers when it comes to some of the current work being undertaken.


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2020, 01:33:15 AM »
So they're basically just reversing the old 15th to allow for the lengthening of the 16th into a 600 yard par 5 for use as the 18th in The Open...


... it looks to be an improvement to me - it will play towards the sea into the prevailing wind.


What news is there of the rumoured abandonment of holes #17 & #18 (#1 & #2 in The Open) in favour of two new holes in the dunes mid round?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 01:35:37 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2020, 06:17:29 AM »
Seems like changes to the 4th, 7th and 13th at Hoylake are on the way as well - see - https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/ebert-oversees-changes-at-royal-liverpool-ahead-of-2022-open
Atb

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2020, 09:01:58 AM »
Homogeneous and incongruous at the same time. Interesting stuff.


A good and truthful observation, despite your  distaste at the bitterness of some reviewers when it comes to some of the current work being undertaken.

I thought I might expand on this because in an effort to bite my tongue, I often throw in quick comments rather than trying to explain my thoughts. That's probably the worst solution.

I am against any design firm winning too much work on our limited number of links courses. I don't want Renaissance to be working on 30 courses, I don't want CDP to be working on 30 courses, I don't want M&E to be working on 30 courses. The bottom line is that 30 courses don't need "significant" changes so my first gripe is why is all of this work happening?

Sure, I know the score: Every club committee wants to leave their mark, make changes, keep up with the Jones's, "improve". But architects should know when to push for less rather than more work. It's really easy to come up with cool and fancy ideas on a links course. But there should be a huge amount of respect paid before suggesting changes to what has come before. When you are working on so many top courses, it is easy to become complacent in paying that respect. Architects should tell clubs when they shouldn't be doing something as well as when they should.

In addition to the above, because of wind and firmness, changes cannot be suggested to links courses until a designer really understands how that course plays. You cannot design by numbers and yardages on a links course like you can on a target-based aerial inland course. When a designer has 30 courses on the go, he does not have the bandwidth, time or capability to understand and learn each course before suggesting changes. He also does not have the time to be on-site hand-in-hand with the shaper in getting the details right, something that on sand is especially key.

So to homogeneity: Every designer is going to repeat ideas and styles over 30 courses. It's impossible not to. But with the current M&E work, I'm seeing a consistency in design solution across almost all of these courses. Most of these designs are excellently built and technically very good as you would expect from such a firm and the people they work with. But they are often lacking an element of playfulness with bunker positions, have green designs that don't look location-specific (maybe because they are built off plan rather than detailed in the field), have open sand scrapes on courses that have none elsewhere and containment dunes on courses that are ostensibly low-lying. We are seeing consistent shaggy bunkers built in fairways where they don't necessarily fit and sod-wall bunkers at the green. Sometimes this looks and works really well, sometimes not so. Which brings me to incongruity:

Every links course has a wildly different nature to the next - that's what makes links golf so great. Those who aren't familiar just see treeless courses with rough grasses, dunes and sea and bracket them all together but most on here will know that each course really does have its own character. If you bring the same type of design solution to each and every links course, sometimes it is going to fit and sometimes it isn't.

To my mind, M&E have taken a trend with their bunker building that was started by the US minimalists. There is no doubt that that is the initial inspiration, even if historic accuracy (shaggy bunkers + positions) and environmental advantages (open sand scars) are being used as the primary selling point. That's not supposed to be a negative. The same folks have influenced and inspired me also. What I am noticing is that M&E are getting bolder with the way they are implementing this on a few of the most recent courses. Which leaves us with the 17th at Hoylake.

Here we have perhaps the most subtle of all our championship links courses. There is no open sand and most of the course is very flat indeed. It uses other means to create strategy and intrigue. Now there is a par-three introduced with the boldest and most extrovert idea that M&E have come up with yet. Huge open sand scars shaped as bunkers, an island of green with a beach bunker at the rear, hybrid style sod and shaggy face (which I like and use as a concept) and an horizon green. It looks really cool. But it is as far away from fitting in with the rest of the course as I could imagine.

So, in summation, I really like some of the work that this firm have done. After all, every course and plan should be appraised on its own merit and many courses have undoubtedly been improved by their designs. I also admire the effort put in to their "sales" documentation, always presented clearly and in a very attractive manner. I don't always like the type of design solution they come up with. That is only natural. We all look at courses slightly differently and often they have to design with big championships in mind. I have never had that pleasure. I also don't like that they appear - speculation of course - to recommend changes too quickly. There has been a fair bit of unnecessary work done in the name of a style and drama rather than strategy and hole interest (even though style and drama can constitute a reason in itself). I really don't like the propensity to change individual and original features unless it is absolutely mandatory to meet a brief (e.g. erosion changes).

It probably all niggles at me a little more than it should. Maybe it's just because I feel so connected to links golf and have such respect for the courses myself. I probably care way too much. Either way, I thought it better to put down my thoughts rather than keep on throwing the odd individual line or hint.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 01:52:06 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Frank Pont

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2020, 09:37:06 AM »
Ally, CDP is currently working on 1 GBI links course, Renaissance on 1 or 2 and M&E on the rest (30+). So no danger in the near term that either Renaissance or us will be overbearing in GBI  :-) .....


The problem with this and many other projects I have seen of M&E is that their work is so obviously different from the rest of the course. Some people do not mind that, as long as the hole/green is technically good, but for me blending in is maybe the most important issue.

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2020, 12:51:49 PM »
Agree with Frank and Ally.


By contrast, here is a photo from a recently restored bunker at New Zealand GC. It ties in so well with the rest of the course - it doesn't try to be something else, and incorporates the characteristics of the site (in this instance the heather) into the bunker.


And those bunker edge lines look so natural. Many think it's just squiggly lines that makes a bunker seem natural, but there is real art here in the way it feels eroded instead of man-made. (Photos via @cdpgolf1








Bravo!

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wake up UK&I!
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2020, 12:54:29 PM »
The problem with this and many other projects I have seen of M&E is that their work is so obviously different from the rest of the course. Some people do not mind that, as long as the hole/green is technically good, but for me blending in is maybe the most important issue.
Frank & Ally,
Thanks much for both of your posts. I think you do a fine job sharing the concerns of more than just yourselves.

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