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Bill Charles

Re: Bethpage Black is not a great course
« Reply #275 on: May 21, 2019, 04:00:21 PM »

A special thanks to Ran for accepting me into this group I have followed for a long time. I have sat on the sidelines for a very long time through many advocates of pro design but ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Bethpage Black is NOT a great course. There are better options at the state park. Black may have been a GREAT course at one time but it has been bastardized for the pro game and calling it restored is nothing more than A JOKE!


I have the same question everyone else does in here FOR NICK. What is it that makes Bethpage Black a GREAT design? I wait in anticipation with everyone here.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 04:04:25 PM by Bill Charles »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black is not a great course
« Reply #276 on: May 22, 2019, 09:47:32 AM »
I have the same question everyone else does in here FOR NICK. What is it that makes Bethpage Black a GREAT design? I wait in anticipation with everyone here.
Still hoping to read this answer for myself. I could be wrong but I think the only defenses Nick has offered are (both paraphrased):
  • "True to the original design intent"
  • "Tough"
One could make just about any course "tough" if they wanted to, but it might be a horrible "design."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Chris Mavros

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black is not a great course
« Reply #277 on: May 22, 2019, 10:04:18 AM »
I have the same question everyone else does in here FOR NICK. What is it that makes Bethpage Black a GREAT design? I wait in anticipation with everyone here.
Still hoping to read this answer for myself. I could be wrong but I think the only defenses Nick has offered are (both paraphrased):
  • "True to the original design intent"
  • "Tough"
One could make just about any course "tough" if they wanted to, but it might be a horrible "design."


That's at least my point, Erik.  While I'm sure it's rather easy to make any course "tough," it's quite another to make a difficult course engaging.  Making a difficult course interesting throughout the round is a what makes BPB a great course in my opinion.  I've stated my reasons for why I believe it's engaging in prior posts.  The original intent was to make it a severe test and BPB obviously accomplishes that.  While I certainly prefer a different type of course day in and day out, I can appreciate the stern test BPB provides.  I appreciate the variety of courses and design styles out there. 


Others disagree while others feel there are ways the course can be improved upon.  That's fine; this is all subjective. 


Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black is not a great course
« Reply #278 on: May 24, 2019, 09:03:14 AM »
  So now that there's another BPB thread where everyone can spit bile at each other, perhaps this thread could get back to discussing the actual architectural details of Bethpage current vs past.


The irony of defending Bethpage circa 2019 is that the current set-up actually lessens the impact of the unique characteristics that make the course extraordinary. Any greens crew with a lawn mower can narrow fairways and grow rough. That doesn't make Bethpage more exceptional, it makes it more ordinary.


If the bunkers are so big and bold, why bury them in the rough? If the land movement is so monumental, why force so many players to approach it with sideways pitch-outs? If the length and carries are so intimidating, why not let more players attempt to conquer them? Why put so much value in something as arbitrary and mercurial as mowing lines?


There are spots all over Bethpage, most of them already mentioned, where bringing back width would bring back a lot of bad angles, uneven lies, and questionable decisions. It would not make the course play much easier for anyone who isn't already near-scratch, nor is "easier" anyone's goal in this thread — finding a more interesting kind of difficult, is.


If the purpose of Bethpage is only to emulate a modern pro event and extract the highest possible score from all who play it, well, it's off to a great start. If those are the priorities, though, then obviously the quality of architecture and design are not, and that's the discussion here: what would the course look like if they were?
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bethpage Black is not a great course
« Reply #279 on: July 05, 2019, 09:34:20 PM »
If anyone wants to play Bethpage Black with the person who said it’s not currently a great course, I have an open spot in my foursome on Sunday at 10:42am. The group includes Pete Gannon, who also posts on here. Would love to meet someone new from the board. Just let me know by Saturday night.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

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