Uk and Ireland Golf rips off stupid American golf tourists big time

[Stewart Abramson]

There are still a lot of bargains to be found wherever you visit in Ireland. I just got back from a non golf trip to Dublin and was able to sneak in a few inexpensive rounds at courses such as Corballis and Sutton for about 40 Euro that were great value. Even Royal Dublin was only 90 Euro if you play at the right time. I felt the oppositeof being ripped off. As an aside. I'm suprised that TD gave Royal Dublin a 4. It's at least a 6 IMHO and surprised it gets so little love.



Corballis #4 a par 3 115 yards


 
Sutton GC #8  short of green



Royal Dublin #3 e right green front bunkers

[Tim_Weiman]

So sorry to throw this out there. I expect to be flamed big time, but....


Watching the Irish open today to enjoy the play at Lahinch, I hear the commentators constantly plugging how close the USA and IRE are and how welcoming the homeland is to the sons of former emigrants. Come to IRE for golf they proclaim!


My take is that they see USA golf tourists as a bunch of saps who will pay 1/4 of what an IRE member plays for a years subscription just to play a single round.


Same is true for the "bucket list" courses in Scotland!


Happily, the informed Golf Club Atlas reader can avoid being so shystered!


PM me for lovely "non bucket" suggestions.

Malcom,


In your opinion, what should Irish clubs, e.g., Ballybunion, Lahinch, Waterville, etc., charge guest to play? What would be a fair fee? How would you determine the fee?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Franciscan friar Richard Rohr has written that he prays for one good humiliation daily.  Having booked golf at Lahinch and Ballybunion in October, I'd like to thank those posters on this thread who have referred to the likes of me as stupid, daft and a belt-notcher.  I am humbled indeed. 


Bogey
An Accidental Tourist

Those of us interested in seeing the best golf courses are all belt-notchers when we visit somewhere far away very infrequently. It comes with the territory and doesn’t make us stupid.


It’s just unfortunate that the demand for the tourist trail clubs are driving up the cost of other golf courses too, ones that couldn’t fill their tee-sheet at half the cost but are convinced - counter-intuitively - that they can hook even more wealthy Americans at double the price.


Who wouldn’t want to play Lahinch or Ballybunion though - you’d be daft to skip them...

[jeffwarne]

Belt-notcher courses can afford to double their green fee because there are enough belt notchers willing to pay the cost. This enables these clubs to put a load of money in to fine-tuning their presentation and maintenance practices, thus widening the gulf to the second tier.


Belt notchers then become even less interested in playing the second tier because they aren’t presented as well. Or they perceive them to be less good because they only charge 60 quid per round.

leaving it at that (and quoting you a bit out of context) this is perfect scenario
contains the belt notchers, and keeps the "second tier" (a matter of opinion IMHO) clear of such
win-win


and hopefully puts just enough money in the coffers to keep the courses viable, yet presented traditionally rough, ready and authentic...


I consider myself a bit of a belt notcher in my quest for untarnished gems where the culture is still authentic.
I'm pretty sure I'll never play Trump Aberdeen or Castle Stuart, not because they're not great courses, it's just not what I look for personally in my leisure time.
To each his own.

[Jim Lipstate]

I have made three trips to Ireland as much for the experience of Irish culture as for the golf. I do love links golf and outside of Bandon you are not likely to experience the pleasures of links golf in the States. I would not make a steady diet of premium high end courses but I don’t have a problem paying top dollar on occasion to play courses such as Lahinch or Ballybunion. I have to say the lesser known courses in the northern section of the Republic of Ireland (eg. Donegal and Ballyliffin) and Northern Ireland (eg. Portstewart and Castlerock) provide an equally exhilarating links experience.


 Also it is a pleasure to travel to a country so welcoming to Americans. I think it is a good thing that these world class courses are available to the tourist golfer. Contrast that to the states where only an “in” can get you on most of our private high end courses. I take pride as an American in our egalitarian mindset but when it comes to golf the “Old World” has the better model.

[Kalen Braley]

I still don't get why its so hard to understand the cost basis for the members at said club.


If you can be a member at a top notch UK club for a small fraction of what it would cost otherwise, and only have to give up a few off peak tee times, its a no-brainer to do it.  Why not have your cake and eat it too...

[Charles Lund]

I don't begrudge tourists coming to play golf in Ireland and/or the UK or the promotions in conjunction with TV coverage of the Irish Open the past two years.


I began overseas golf travel back in 2007 when I realized there were so many barriers to playing most of the well known courses here which are private and Ireland and the UK made their courses available.


I first went to Ireland in 2009 during the bleakest part of the world recession.  I went for five weeks and played 27 rounds on 23 different courses, on a self drive, solo tour, which I self organized.  I have now been to Ireland on a total of 13 different trips, Scotland, on three trips, and England on one trip to the Southwest to play mostly on the Devon/Cornwall course.  I've flown through London a lot but only played a couple of courses accessible from London. All trips have been self directed.


I joined a club in Donegal after a trip in 2013 and went on multiple trips per year for a few years, renting a house, taking advantage of a credit card that covered car rental insurance in Ireland, and traveling by different air carriers on different routes, and with different return stopovers.  So I found less expensive ways to travel, did side trips, met locals and had some fantastic experiences.


I took a break this year but feel a bit sentimental watching the Irish Open at Lahinch, which I played only once, back in 2009, for 120 euros.  What I hear on TV with the advertising and promotion of Ireland golf is accurate as far as the core experience.  I have always felt badly for the Americans getting off tour buses, playing 18 holes, and getting back on the tour bus to the next course, thinking that in their quest to play the top six of seven courses in a once in a lifetime trip, they miss what I found that was so special.  I have similar sentiments for Scotland.


I made a decision two years ago to go to the Devon/Cornwall coast and bought a five day ticket at St. Enodoc, which was a wonderful experience.  I also played Royal North Devon, Saunton East and West, and Burnham and Berrow with a couple of GCA members.


I've also done 15 trips to Australia.  I like the golf cultures, abundance of great courses, and accessibility of courses in the countries I have referenced in this post.  Spain and Portugal were fun too.


My hope is that people will look at Ireland and get the idea to go or try it on their own once they have done an organized trip.  It's been a great lifestyle and adventure for me and part of a quality experience with retirement.


Charles Lund

[Jim Tang]

If playing superlative links golf in Ireland or Scotland is one of your life's two or three greatest passions, go for it.  Life is much too short.

[MClutterbuck]

For UK courses, the Pound weakening from 1.71 Dollars per Pound 5 years ago to 1.25 Dollars per Pound means that just on that basis the clubs could charge 37% more without changing the nominal cost to a US tourist.


Factor in US inflation, and you are up to 48.5% in real terms. So an American tourist that paid 100 Pounds 5 years ago is just as happy to pay 150 pounds today.


Tourist golf rounds are a tradeable service, ie it has local and international demand. Exchange rate changes affect their prices. Golf memberships are a non tradeable service. Exchange rate changes do not affect its market directly.


The same effect in Ireland is smaller, but still significant, 35.6%.

Pure macroeconomics explain a good part of the increase in green fees.

[Sean_A]

My take is that they see USA golf tourists as a bunch of saps who will pay 1/4 of what an IRE member plays for a years subscription just to play a single round.

Same is true for the "bucket list" courses in Scotland!

MM

My take is somwhere inbetween the Irish thinking Americans are saps and the Irish are unaltruistic lovers of all things American.  First, the sap part...I don't think this "feeling" is reserved solely for Americans.  The Irish will take anybody's money.  Second, in my experience, the Irish welcome all equally and expect to be paid for their services.  This isn't very different from most places which rely heavily on tourist income. 

I would say, we must remember that for golf, it is the Americans who are out of whack with much the rest of the world. So, Ireland is not so unusual in accepting visitors. Much in the same way it is reasonable for clubs to have rules about clothing, phones etc, they can also charge what they like.  Sure, I would like to play Ballybunion again, but I don't feel bad about giving it a miss when it costs 230 Euro.  That for me is absolutely no different to not feeling any pinch whatsoever about not buying a BMW for £75,000.  No problem, drive a cheaper car and play cheaper courses.

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

I'm not willing to pay for a BMW either, but I don't think those who do are stupid saps.

[David_Tepper]

There is no country where the golfers are more keen or more hospitable than in Ireland, and the friendliness with which the inhabitants welcome their guests is only equalled by the earnestness with which they endeavor, and very often successfully, to beat them. It is a fine country for a golfing holiday, and this fact is now so thoroughly appreciated that Englishmen and Scotsmen pour over to the Irish courses every summer, and more especially to the particular course on which the Irish Championship is being played for.  BERNARD DARWIN

[Duncan Cheslett]

UK and Ireland Golf rips off stupid American golf tourists big time

1. American golf tourists are not stupid. They are more likely to be one-off or very occasional visitors who dream of playing world famous courses and can afford to pay (within reason) whatever it takes.

2. There is no "rip off" taking place. A "rip off" suggests misrepresentation or other fraudulent action on the part of the vendor. A high price does not on its own make any transaction a "rip off"

No-one is suggesting that any UK&I golf club is misrepresenting itself in order to cheat tourists of money. Simply charging whatever they are prepared to pay is not a "rip off" - it is just sound economic common sense.


I am interested in Tim's story above of North Berwick stimulating more interest from visitors by raising the green fee, thereby increasing demand from those who believe that a more expensive course is necessarily a better course and therefore one that should not be missed.


In our own little way, we can learn much from this story at Cavendish. We are already putting great efforts into improving the presentation of the course and clubhouse with the specific intention of attracting more visitors and justifying increased green fees. The extra revenue can then be invested in more significant improvements to the course, such as bunker renovation, while keeping membership fees affordable to locals in what is a small town with two golf clubs some 30-40 minutes distant from any major centre of population.


It is already working - we have an average of five societies booked on each Sunday this summer.


Supply and Demand. Stimulate demand by offering the perception of a more desirable product or experience and customers will pay more.

[Mark Chaplin]

Last time I was at Ballybunion there were a minimum of 10 coaches in the car park each day full of golfers. The club cannot be blamed for the queues of golfers willing to pay €240 a round, the only people who suffer are the members who cannot get onto their course midweek but have a club account stuffed with cash.

[Mark Pearce]

Malcolm,


Seriously?  An American who has spent time in Scotland is ripping UK courses for taking advantage of American golfers?


There are so many obvious points to make:


1  As has been pointed out, you can go online and book a time at Muirfield, if you're willing to pay.  Let me have the link that lets me do that at Seminole or Pine Valley.


2  Have you looked up the green fee at Pebble Beach recently?  And what about somewhere far less interesting, like, say, Doral?


3  Your entire post is premised on those American tourists being stupid.  So where in the US can they get better golf cheaper?


4  I'm playing Silloth next weekend for £30.  You could be too.  Look it up on here.


5  Golf at last year's BUDA cost me less than £200 for 3 days.  This year's will be cheaper.


Honestly, I think you need to step back and look at things in perspective.

[Jeff Schley]

Last time I was at Ballybunion there were a minimum of 10 coaches in the car park each day full of golfers. The club cannot be blamed for the queues of golfers willing to pay €240 a round, the only people who suffer are the members who cannot get onto their course midweek but have a club account stuffed with cash.

This is true Mark.  I was there in June and inquired about the overseas membership as I really liked the course and experience (who wouldn't).  Our caddie said they closed the overseas membership for periods of time only opening it up when they needed cash for some renovation etc.  He said, and I have to say funny, "let you rich yanks help out the club". The pro shop brought out a lady was very nice and giving me some info.  It was open at the moment for and for unlimited play.  Great deal if you get there somewhat often.


They also state: [size=0pt]We give overseas members of Ballybunion Golf Club the following commitment; All income to Ballybunion GC from Overseas members will be applied to capital investments in the Club and to our Coastal protection program.[/size]

[Jeff Schley]

They also said they have like 700 or so overseas members IIRC.  Our caddie, who may or may not be accurate said only about 25% visit at least 1x a year.

[Rob Rigg]

Bandon Summer Rate - $285 if you stay onsite and $335 if not. Caddies on top of that if you desire.

As mentioned, Bandon isn't even on the Top 10 Most Expensive Public Courses list in the US. Kohler, Pebble, etc. all more.
Spent most summers with family in Ireland growing up but haven't been back for almost 2 decades. Heading over next summer to show the boss and junior the homeland, see some fam, and play some all world golf and I'll definitely be dropping 250 Euros to play some of the best courses in the world.

IMO - Well worth it. There are definitely some solid "value links plays" in Ireland but if you get over there once or twice in your life and love GCA then why wouldn't you do everything possible to see RCD, RP, BB, Lahinch and PM. If that allows the clubs to fill the coffers then fantastic. The members are fortunate enough to live and play on the finest links courses in the world so more power to them.

Frankly, I'd rather spend my money there than drop $50k on a private club membership in PDX and $750 a month in dues. Go forth and see the world!

Proud stupid Canadian American GCA Addict.

[corey miller]

I have no problem with the clubs in Ireland doing the money grab thing on tourist golfers but do wonder why a private US club that limits outside play is "wrong".... Would it be preferable if the US clubs priced outside play based on the Irish model, that is at a price that is multiples above what the local member pays on a per round basis?

Also consider that in general, guest fees at most all US courses are fairly reasonable if not cheap. 

[Mark Pearce]

I have no problem with the clubs in Ireland doing the money grab thing on tourist golfers but do wonder why a private US club that limits outside play is "wrong".... Would it be preferable if the US clubs priced outside play based on the Irish model, that is at a price that is multiples above what the local member pays on a per round basis?

Also consider that in general, guest fees at most all US courses are fairly reasonable if not cheap. 

No one has said that's wrong.  But you can't criticise the top UK courses for being expensive to complete strangers when their US equivalents don't even contemplate allowing unintroduced visitor play.


We aren't talking about "Guest" fees.  But if we were, then you'd be astonished by how low some UK clubs fees for members guests are.  And I mean astonished.  I spent more on a round of drinks for my wife, my son and me in Paris yesterday than it costs my father in law to introduce me as a guest at a world top 10 club.

[corey miller]

I don't think anyone is criticizing Irish clubs, I certainly am not.  What I am pointing out is that American clubs are often criticized for "cost" and being non egalitarian while concurrently not doing the money grab.


Would anyone think the American private golfing world more inclusive if Pine Valley had two un-accompanied rounds a day at $1000 a person?


And to what extent are "stupid American golf tourists" that pay multiples of the cost per member also "stupid American golf tourists" that play in five hours and are absolute boors on the golf course and in the locker/grill room? 

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't think anyone is criticizing Irish clubs, I certainly am not.  What I am pointing out is that American clubs are often criticized for "cost" and being non egalitarian while concurrently not doing the money grab.

No-one is doing the "money grab".


UK&I clubs generally open up their courses for unaccompanied visitor play. In the US this is far less common, especially among the most elite venues. On this side of the pond however, anyone can book a round on pretty well any course, pay their green fee, and play a round of golf.


Each club which welcomes unaccompanied visitor play will set their green fee at a rate that will ensure that available slots are filled, but that most if not all interested parties are accommodated. It is little different to selling hotel rooms, restaurant tables, or airline tickets.


The rate that ensures full tee sheets but few disappointed potential guests is the correct market price for a round of golf on that particular course. If that price is £30 so be it. If that price is £300 so be it.


It is not a "money grab". It is generously sharing one's fabulous golf course with guests at the going rate.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have no problem with the clubs in Ireland doing the money grab thing on tourist golfers but do wonder why a private US club that limits outside play is "wrong".... Would it be preferable if the US clubs priced outside play based on the Irish model, that is at a price that is multiples above what the local member pays on a per round basis?

Also consider that in general, guest fees at most all US courses are fairly reasonable if not cheap. 

No one has said that's wrong.  But you can't criticise the top UK courses for being expensive to complete strangers when their US equivalents don't even contemplate allowing unintroduced visitor play.


We aren't talking about "Guest" fees.  But if we were, then you'd be astonished by how low some UK clubs fees for members guests are.  And I mean astonished.  I spent more on a round of drinks for my wife, my son and me in Paris yesterday than it costs my father in law to introduce me as a guest at a world top 10 club.

Yes, guest fees can be very, very low at the great clubs.


I was really disappointed in the last few years when Portmarnock upped theirs from 30 to 50 Euro as I consider that now to be on the expensive end of the scale for great links courses in GB&I. Most are a lot less.

[Mark Pearce]

Corey Miller - start at the OP and you'll understand the thread.  Very certainly Malcolm is criticising Irish and UK clubs and his criticism makes no sense in the context of US clubs.

[Peter Pallotta]

Talk about the whole being less than the sum of its parts:

A thread chock full of good and articulate posts -- and yet the thread as a whole is silly..

At best