Uk and Ireland Golf rips off stupid American golf tourists big time

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

So sorry to throw this out there. I expect to be flamed big time, but....


Watching the Irish open today to enjoy the play at Lahinch, I hear the commentators constantly plugging how close the USA and IRE are and how welcoming the homeland is to the sons of former emigrants. Come to IRE for golf they proclaim!


My take is that they see USA golf tourists as a bunch of saps who will pay 1/4 of what an IRE member pays for a years subscription just to play a single round.


Same is true for the "bucket list" courses in Scotland!


Happily, the informed Golf Club Atlas reader can avoid being so shystered!


PM me for lovely "non bucket" suggestions.

[jeffwarne]

Please tell me how much an unaccompanied round at Pine Valley costs?
or ANGC?
Oakmont?
Pebble Beach?
Fisher Island?


What amazes me is why they would allow their courses to become so overrun with tourists such as Ballybunion.


Not a rip off at all-and if one feels it is poor value, they have choices.
I'm always amazed at what people pay for sporting events-to each their own and I'd rather see someone pay to play a bucket list course than blow it on a bottle of wine or a bar tab.
heck the caddie rate at private US bucket list courses isn't too far north of the bucket list Irish courses....

[Kalen Braley]

Malcom,

The massive cost differential between the US and UK private model is pretty well documented here, and my hats off to the UK folks for being fiscally smart about it..

But I suspect green fees are just as expensive for rounds at Bandon vs a top notch UK course, its just what one expects to pay for the experience...

[Adam_Messix]

If someone is willing to pay the price, then what's the problem?  Frankly the combination of what the life members paid years ago and the tourist money coming in today has allowed Ballybunion to be the jewel that it is. 


Are there a lot of wonderful golf courses off the beaten path?  You betcha!  There is many a County Sligo, Donegal, and Silloth on Solway well worth a visit!  I hope to see more in the next few years.

[Mike Sweeney]

Happily, the informed Golf Club Atlas reader can avoid being so shystered!

Malcom,


With a recent Father & Son trip completed in June, I disagree.



1) We played Ballybunion as the guest of a Member and also as the traditional American tourist. They were great to us both ways.


2) Lahinch was probably the most expensive and I just loved it. We played in a fierce wind and the place was buzzing in anticipation of The Irish Open.


3) I am an Overseas Lifetime Member at Enniscrone, and have not been there in 8+ years. Honestly when I was booking our rounds I assumed they would have "lost my membership". They treated me, my son, and my guest like royalty. We were invited to the Monthly Dinner where they give out awards for the past month's competitions, and it was an absolute blast to be there.


4) My only regret is I read too many GCA post about Portmarnock being overrated. We only had time for lunch and a quick tour, and I regret not setting up a game. Love what I saw. We played The Island Club and the Pro there was simply great to us.


Having flown into Germany last summer (family trip, no golf), my other ethnic heritage, versus Ireland this summer, it is not even close. The Irish are very welcoming.

[William_G]

I agree that the tour groups are ripoffs, it's the market according to Irish Golf.


Obviously cheaper to book your room, rounds and transportation.


 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think the Irish are always happy to see American visitors. They are a welcoming nation who are often humbled that someone has travelled halfway around the world to play their course.


But Malcolm is right to a small extent: There is certainly this perception among some clubs that the green fee has to be high (well in to 3 figures) to even turn the heads of the “wealthy” Americans. So I’ve seen rack rates rise exponentially on this basis.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Surely it's just supply and demand.

There's only one Lahinch (or wherever), and only so many tee times available. They will price the tee times to generate maximum revenue from the demand that is there.

That is not a "rip off". It's just the market setting a true price. Blame the rich Yanks for being daft enough to pay it, not the clubs!

The answer is not to fall for the hype of the big name courses and seek out slightly lower tier clubs where the demand (and consequently the price) is considerably less.

I can't see any problem with private members' clubs charging high green fees in order to subsidise membership subscriptions. Clubs are generally owned by and run for the benefit of members, after all.

These classic links courses tend to be in rather remote rural areas where half the catchment area is inhabited by fish. Local membership has to be affordable in order for the club to keep the numbers up and to function as a proper club at all. Visitor play allows this - Royal Dornoch being the classic example. Why would they not charge the going market rate?

[Jon Wiggett]

If you want to see the true rate for greenfees in the UK you need to look at the second tier clubs who are usually charging around the £50-£60 range. This would put the top boys in the £80-£100 bracket which is about where it should be. The fact that they charge way above that is almost entirely due to the belt notcher brigade who are willing to pay way over the odds. Don't blame the clubs though. If this source of revenue were to dry up then expect to see prices tumble.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Price points generally in Ireland .. not just golf ... seem to have risen quite a bit during the last 2-3 yrs. Is this a supply and demand issue, an exchange rate issue, a cost based issue or something else?
atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

If you want to see the true rate for greenfees in the UK you need to look at the second tier clubs who are usually charging around the £50-£60 range. This would put the top boys in the £80-£100 bracket which is about where it should be. The fact that they charge way above that is almost entirely due to the belt notcher brigade who are willing to pay way over the odds. Don't blame the clubs though. If this source of revenue were to dry up then expect to see prices tumble.


Jon

Exactly. The elite clubs are only able to charge £250 for a round because there are plenty of people prepared to pay it. For a once in a lifetime opportunity to play a world famous course such as TOC or Royal Dornoch £250 does not sound too bad if you say it quickly enough.


Heck, I might even pay £250 to play Augusta National or Cypress Point. Unfortunately that opportunity is not available.


If the demand falls the prices will plummet.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Price points generally in Ireland .. not just golf ... seem to have risen quite a bit during the last 2-3 yrs. Is this a supply and demand issue, an exchange rate issue, a cost based issue or something else?
atb

Everything is a supply and demand issue.


Plenty of factors influence demand - exchange rates being one of them.

[Jeff Schley]

So my question is: would you rather there be no outside play at all?



I'm thrilled these wonderful courses offer outside play at all, a far cry from most private clubs in the US. Too pricey?  Don't play.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Supply and demand is correct but also too easy an answer.


I see it more like this:


Belt-notcher courses can afford to double their green fee because there are enough belt notchers willing to pay the cost. This enables these clubs to put a load of money in to fine-tuning their presentation and maintenance practices, thus widening the gulf to the second tier.


Belt notchers then become even less interested in playing the second tier because they aren’t presented as well. Or they perceive them to be less good because they only charge 60 quid per round.


So in order to chase the belt-notcher money, many of these 2nd tier clubs now are doubling their green-fees and hoping to persuade tourists that because they charge 160 quid, they should be considered in the same breath as belt-notcher central just down the road.


All of above is - of course - because the wealthy tourist will pay for it. But it’s a state of play that the clubs are driving.

[Tim Gallant]

I believe Ally has it right, and we've seen that first hand at our club. About 6 years ago, demand started rising rapidly, and to try to stem some of that demand, greens fees were raised. That actually only made demand increase though as the feedback we received was that because visitors saw the higher greens fee, they thought it must be a better course.


All that said, Malcolm, the greens fee at my home club is £140 at the height of summer on the weekend. If you can show me a course in the US that is ranked in the Top 60 in the world and charges that, I'll concede your point. To save you looking, Pacific Dunes is $285 at the height of summer, and that's if you stay at the resort

[Ally Mcintosh]

Trouble is, America lost it long ago by spending ridiculous money on maintenance practices, thus increasing their operational cost hugely.


GB&I shouldn’t look at top American country clubs and think we offer good value. Otherwise we’ll spiral in to the same ridiculous situation and golf will be lost.


There is only one course in Europe that is providing the American top-dollar maintenance model. That is Adare in County Limerick.

[Thomas Dai]

There’s The Open location effect too, and the British Amateur location as well for that matter, what with Royal Portrush and Portmarnock/The Island being involved. Jumping on the bandwagon and all that.
But blips occur too though, sometimes of the killing the fatted calf variety. And world events have been known to cause blips in folks travelling overseas whether it be for golf or other reasons.
Atb

[Bill Gayne]

So my question is: would you rather there be no outside play at all?



I'm thrilled these wonderful courses offer outside play at all, a far cry from most private clubs in the US. Too pricey?  Don't play.

+1, I couldn't agree more.

[John Kavanaugh]

Someone is playing all our great courses. It's no ones fault but yours if you are not in the mix.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40921.0.html

[Ryan Coles]

Trouble is, America lost it long ago by spending ridiculous money on maintenance practices, thus increasing their operational cost hugely.


GB&I shouldn’t look at top American country clubs and think we offer good value. Otherwise we’ll spiral in to the same ridiculous situation and golf will be lost.


There is only one course in Europe that is providing the American top-dollar maintenance model. That is Adare in County Limerick.

Not Wisley, Queenwood or Loch Lomond?

[William_G]

Price points generally in Ireland .. not just golf ... seem to have risen quite a bit during the last 2-3 yrs. Is this a supply and demand issue, an exchange rate issue, a cost based issue or something else?
atb

Everything is a supply and demand issue.


Plenty of factors influence demand - exchange rates being one of them.

and the tour operators mark up


the clubs are not overpricing things,


it's the tour operators marking up the already limited supply

[Niall C]

I'm a belt-notcher and probably so is everyone else on here if they cared to admit it. Of course we may think that all we are doing is just playing the courses we really want to play and they just happen to be the big courses that everyone (including us) have heard of and have therefore piqued our interest. You don't go and play the ones you've never heard of, do you.

Just look at the numerous threads on this site asking for advice for forthcoming trips to Scotland/Ireland/England or where ever. In nearly every case the poster isn't really looking for advice but instead for validation of the courses they have already chosen. It's their big trip going to play courses they have only dreamed about up until that point, so why not ? I know I was like that when I went to California a few years ago.

And the thing becomes almost self perpetuating as they come back and tell there friends, and a new breed of potential tourists looking to play the same courses is born. That's how a very small number of courses can charge so much, because of demand from mainly overseas visitors playing their bucket list of courses.

Now irrespective of the price of the green-fee you would hope those visitors would be treated well and my own experience in Scotland and Ireland is that they generally are. Whether it's good value or not is very much subjective and will be down to the individual golfer.

One other thing I would say though is the term "rips off" in the title of the OP is unfortunate. It suggests illegal or underhand actions by the clubs which the OP doesn't come near to showing.

Niall

[Tommy Williamsen]

I admit to being a belt notcher, but after I played all the best known courses I began to play lesser known courses. I have had as much fun on them as I did on the Royal Liverpools, Royal Dornochs, or Royal County Downs. Of course, lesser known is relative. The Island is not "lesser known" to folks on this site, but is to the general public. But Cavendish, Delemere Forest, Cooloten and Arklow in Ireland, and others provide fun, and Pitlochry in Scotland provide some things that rota courses can't--low key enjoyment and local flavor.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Trouble is, America lost it long ago by spending ridiculous money on maintenance practices, thus increasing their operational cost hugely.


GB&I shouldn’t look at top American country clubs and think we offer good value. Otherwise we’ll spiral in to the same ridiculous situation and golf will be lost.


There is only one course in Europe that is providing the American top-dollar maintenance model. That is Adare in County Limerick.

Not Wisley, Queenwood or Loch Lomond?

I don’t think so, Ryan.


Adare is a completely different level to all of those. Sub-air, entire site including all rough sand-capped, 54 green staff for 18 holes.


Maybe I’m overselling what a lot of high-end American private’s do. Maybe Adare’s only contemporary is Augusta.


I’m not familiar enough to know definitively.

[Mike Hendren]

Franciscan friar Richard Rohr has written that he prays for one good humiliation daily.  Having booked golf at Lahinch and Ballybunion in October, I'd like to thank those posters on this thread who have referred to the likes of me as stupid, daft and a belt-notcher.  I am humbled indeed. 


Bogey
An Accidental Tourist