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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2019, 09:39:09 PM »
Pat,


Actually on the topic of how Pros would fare, your opinion is way more than equal. You are the only regular poster who played on the Tour. Whenever a thread devolves or diverts to how a Pro views a course, I hope that you will weigh in.


Ira

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2019, 09:57:56 PM »
Pat,


Actually on the topic of how Pros would fare, your opinion is way more than equal. You are the only regular poster who played on the Tour. Whenever a thread devolves or diverts to how a Pro views a course, I hope that you will weigh in.


Ira




What Ira said--and thanks.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2019, 10:48:10 PM »
 ;D




Yo yo yo. I’m out  and drinking a little and still think 🤔 I know more about PVGC than most of you reprobates.  If it was a tour event and you pulled the rough in, narrowed the fairways it’s over folks. If the green and the fairways were firm it’s worse.


E.G.  When it’s really firm you can’t hold the 6th fairway unless the tee shot is perfect. There is a spine that bisects the fairway that is imperceptible on 364 days a year, if its really firm it deflects both long and short.  It’s probably the easiest hole on the course otherwise . Any more questions😘 love you guys but many are clueless re this joint
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 10:14:15 AM by archie_struthers »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2019, 06:06:39 AM »
;D




Yo yo yo. I’m out  and drinking a little and still think 🤔 I know more about PVGC than most of you reprobates.  If it was a tour event and you pulled the rough in, narrowed the fairways it’s over folks. If the green and the fairways were firm it’s worse.


When it’s really hard you can’t hold the 6th fairway unless the shot is perfect.  It’s probably the easiest hole on the course otherwise . Any more questions😘 love you guys but many are clueless re this joint




Could've used your expertise as tour guide. If only TEP could work a cellphone...

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2019, 09:20:53 AM »


Tom,


I’m not a Travis fan. He’s too much puffery for me but I found Hollywood to be fun because it went all out ( you may know it !). I’m not usually a penal golf course fan but Oakmont does it the best.


PVGC does architecture to the hilt. That’s why I say it’s in its own category.


I agree, and I don't.  No doubt the worst hole at PV would be the best at 80% of courses, and the worst pretty much nowhere else.  I agree with you there.  But you are spending much too much time equating that with the overall difficulty.  Ballyneal or NGLA or North Berwick have holes that are as good as anything at Pine Valley, architecturally, but much easier to play.  They just don't have eighteen holes that good.


I don't believe Mayday has used the words "difficult" or "difficulty" in his comments on Pine Valley.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2019, 10:51:21 AM »
Interesting conversation and I look forward to jumping in later tonight hopefully.


First thoughts are:


1) Regarding hitting a lot of "lay up" clubs off the tee; they've very appropriately added 4 or 5 back tees that put driver back in the bag for the longest hitters...which is a great thing in my opinion.


2) It would be an architectural catastrophe to narrow the fairways in the event of a Tour event...simply because the fun is all out on the edges of the corridors and the rough will stop the ball from getting there...


3) I agree that Mayday id not talking about difficulty. He's simply referring to the fact that each shot provides a ton of golf related visual stimulation...things to think about...so you never really just grab a club and hit a stock shot at the pin.


If the Tour controlled conditioning and setup, winning score would be 12 - 15 under par with a very wide spectrum of scores.
If the USGA controlled preparation and set up, +10 could win with several places where they would look bad because the ball can trickle a very long way away from certain pins on those greens...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2019, 11:27:42 AM »
Jim, the following is a direct quote from Maydays initial Post.  Yes he didn't use the word difficult, but he basically used everything else,...


Quote
I think it is the width with death beyond that makes it for me. The looks of the diagonals with the huge bunkers and the green complexes are unparalleled and it’s every hole. [/size]After the first hole was over I said “uhoh” I just let the easiest hole go by now it’s going to be tough. I think of my home course as challenging but it’s downright easy compared to Pine Valley. Never do I feel on the tee as a 15 handicap that the hole is impossible. I believe I make my own mistakes and all hazards are avoidable. But mishits are severely punished. Strategy abounds but   the punishment is severe. [/color]

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2019, 12:15:22 PM »
 8)




Always love when Sully pipes in on the Valley, he has walked the walk there.


Not suggesting they should narrow fairways and I'm good with a four day score as tour would prepare it. But the +10 if it was an Open shows how tough he thinks it can be, and he wasn't even there for Bator's revenge. lol

David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2019, 01:44:19 PM »
Similar to Mike I was very fortunate to play Pine Valley again last week. I by far enjoyed the course and overall experience a lot more this time around. I can recall being a bit intimidated and off my game the first visit. If you are off your game Pine Valley may well tear you apart. Having seen it and heard people say it several times pre renovation I just didn't have the feeling there was a lot of space there. Now that so many trees have been removed the overall feel for me is a lot better and I played much better so probably missed a total of 1 fairway. Good for my standards. I can't think of another course that makes you feel the same way off the tee. To me there really isn't another course where you stand there and kind of worry about all the trouble, which visually is very present on every single hole and basically on every single shot. I would say that every hole is a very good if not great hole indeed which is unique to only the very best of the best courses in the world and for me it comes down to what you personally consider great and your level of play. Cypress Point for example is fun for all levels and an amazing walk. I'd hope a 20 hcp'er would favor it, he would certainly have more golf fun there and have a chance on most holes. In fact, I might even drop border back to something like 8 hcp or even 5 hcp. I think it would take me several plays to be comfortable enough to shoot a great score at Pine Valley. The hardest parts are certainly not the tee shots. The approach are so exacting and require uncommon shots for most players, playing over visually deceiving terrain to elevated greens or trying to determine what you can cut off for your lay up. recovery shots around the greens are extremely difficult, it's rarely that you can grab a texas wedge and just putt up. End up in a bunker and one thing is for certain you better be competent with your sand and lob wedge.


To offer a couple examples, I missed the approach on 17 by perhaps 6 inches to the right, ended up in the very deep bunker with the crazy two tiered green, I hit a miracle shot out of the bunker better than I could of expected and perfect according to caddies and members and ended with a very difficult breaking 15' putt to save par which I didn't make. That's the story on every single hole. I missed the approach to the par 5 15th which played over 600 yds to a back right pin (after two perfect shots setting up the approach) again with a wedge. I landed the ball short of the pin, it bounce hard went over the green onto the road. There is no relieve and the road was dirt and gravel and I hit a ridiculously lucky shot to save my par, great, but the point is, there isn't a single easy shot that I've managed to see on the course. On top of that, 2-3 foot putts, the kind most people gift you are also not gimmies there, just like Augusta. Happy my kind opponent made me putt everything out. I had to sweat over many of them.


So yes, 18 great holes, but relentless and no let up. Does that make it the best or is that overdone? I can easily argue both ways. The closest course I can think of in terms of shot demand would be RCD. Add a heavy wind and RCD would get the nod as the more demanding course most likely.


As to the changes, someone posted pics on the site of the new bunkering on 12. This really splits opinions as do a few of the other bunkers. Also the extent to which the waste areas seem overly maintained. I liked the 12 hole in this version but I'm not sure about the bunkering, first off the color is different than every other hole on the course, that's what people notice right away. I watched one of my playing partner hit a ball in there which just disappeared. I was told that's common (I don't love that). It felt overdone to me but I'd prefer to give it a few years to settle in.


Back to the premise of it being in a class all it's own architecturally. Short answer is I'm not convinced this is the case. I have it in my World Top 5 but behind Cypress, RCD and Shinny. I know those are all great, but they are all more playable for all levels, offer visually spectacular walks but honestly for me they get the nod as being just a little more fun. If my hcp was +1 instead of 5 and I relished grinding on every shot when not in a tourney then I might change that around but for me certain aspects of the game are just so great that if you take them away, the game is missing something.


For me these aspects are, firm and fast condition, ability to be creative and bump and run shots, to land approaches short of the green and watch them roll up. To play with the wind, to have a myriad of recovery options for a given shot etc etc.



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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2019, 04:18:53 PM »
Pat,


Actually on the topic of how Pros would fare, your opinion is way more than equal. You are the only regular poster who played on the Tour. Whenever a thread devolves or diverts to how a Pro views a course, I hope that you will weigh in.


Ira


Thank you....I’ve enjoyed the education in here that I’ve received
I’m amazed at the passion and knowledge I get to absorb


I’m always willing to answer any question. Even to my own risk!!!


Teaching now probably gives me some nice insight on how these kids are playing.


Thanks

Mark_F

Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2019, 04:48:16 AM »
They don’t play it every week because the lion’s share of them live interstate.
If it was any good, Scott, it wouldn't matter.  ;D

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