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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2019, 10:21:31 AM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


Did Nick Ribiero get hold of your password Mike?  Architecture is not always about "relentless".


Tom,


I’m not a Travis fan. He’s too much puffery for me but I found Hollywood to be fun because it went all out ( you may know it !). I’m not usually a penal golf course fan but Oakmont does it the best.


PVGC does architecture to the hilt. That’s why I say it’s in its own category.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 10:22:42 AM »
Is there a possibility, however remote, that PV might host either a PGA or a US Open?  How about a Ryder Cup? 

Reading Archie's posts makes me think all the club would have to do is to make the course F&F and run the greens at modern pro speeds.  Any guesstimates on what the winning score might be in this fantasy event?


The biggest event they'd host / have hosted is the Walker Cup.  There's no room for galleries, and they wouldn't want to take the chance that a Tour player would go low and ruin the place's reputation.


I have no idea what the winning score would be.  If they got the greens too fast it would be high, because the greens are almost Augusta-level severe.  Otherwise, the course is not as hard for good players as it is made out to be.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 10:27:46 AM »


Tom,


I’m not a Travis fan. He’s too much puffery for me but I found Hollywood to be fun because it went all out ( you may know it !). I’m not usually a penal golf course fan but Oakmont does it the best.


PVGC does architecture to the hilt. That’s why I say it’s in its own category.


I agree, and I don't.  No doubt the worst hole at PV would be the best at 80% of courses, and the worst pretty much nowhere else.  I agree with you there.  But you are spending much too much time equating that with the overall difficulty.  Ballyneal or NGLA or North Berwick have holes that are as good as anything at Pine Valley, architecturally, but much easier to play.  They just don't have eighteen holes that good.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2019, 11:18:30 AM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


The best way for me to judge a top notch course is by comparing same characteristics in a woman.

Fun, charming, beauty, spirited, full of life, vibrant, multi-faceted, etc.   "Relentless" difficulty probably isn't one I'd add to that list....

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2019, 11:29:32 AM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


The best way for me to judge a top notch course is by comparing same characteristics in a woman.

Fun, charming, beauty, spirited, full of life, vibrant, multi-faceted, etc.   "Relentless" difficulty probably isn't one I'd add to that list....
Kalen,


You’re getting old!
AKA Mayday

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2019, 11:43:15 AM »
NGLA is like a puppy compared to PVGC.
It’s fun but not relentless. It’s minor league compared to Pine Valley which is major league playoff level.


The best way for me to judge a top notch course is by comparing same characteristics in a woman.

Fun, charming, beauty, spirited, full of life, vibrant, multi-faceted, etc.   "Relentless" difficulty probably isn't one I'd add to that list....
Kalen,

You’re getting old!


Lol.  I'm not too far away from 50, so I guess a case be made for that.

To clarify, I like go-getter women who excel in their career, know what they want, and pursue life with vigor.  My wife certainly does well in those categories.

My wife's Step Mom was in town this past weekend, and she certainly fits the bill of relentlessly difficult and that my friend was not fun for any of us.....

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2019, 11:52:05 AM »
I think Pine Valley is the best course I've played and I agree, it is relentless. Shinnecock Hills is also relentless. The variety of the golf holes, the quality of the golf holes, did I mention the variety(?!), found at Pine Valley overwhelms the senses. Problem is there's little time to ooh and ahh if you aren't on your game and little relief once on the green.  It really is a beautiful "dilemma" ;D  and the experience blew through any preconceived notion I might have had that hype might be in play due to exclusivity.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2019, 11:55:33 AM »
Mayday,

Pine Valley and ANGC are the two courses that remain on my bucket list to come and see via Crump Cup and a Practice round or Womens Am round. As a western US guy, I just don't get back east much but would love to see them in person...

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2019, 12:35:04 PM »
 ;D ;)




Mr. Doak's comment that the powers that be might be protecting PV from being torn up by the tour pros rings hollow to me. They specifically don't trick it up for daily play and plenty of "sticks" and tour pros come thru there on a regular basis. Occasionally a low score occurs and tends to be celebrated with a chorus of well done!


Having been there for  the infamous Crump Cup qualifier when superintendent Bator got his revenge on the blasphemers who echoed TD'S sentiments,  I can tell you the golf course was terrifying that day!  This with no rough to speak of and barely a hint of wind.






p.s.  Bob Lewis shot 64 the previous year on a wet slow golf course....Bator seethed for a year but got even ...77 (Jay Sigel) was low and 85 made championship flight , will never forget it

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2019, 12:43:20 PM »
Archie,

I don't know about that.  Its one thing to have some local ams come thru where a no name guy occasionally shreds the course via a 64...

But an entirely different thing to air the same to an International TV audience where top notch players are blistering the course and broadcasting the carnage for all to see every last juicy detail....

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2019, 01:26:36 PM »
I grew up in New Jersey playing a Van Etten/Ross changed course.  My dad was a golf pro and I was able to go play many of the very good courses in the state. I was spoiled, and loved architecture.  Drawing courses in notebooks, holes in the borders of note paper in class ( not a great student you can imagine).


My brother made it to the finals of the Crump Cup when I was about 14.  And I walked the course while he played.  At that age I was amazed at the place. I also remember thinking there was always a scale to the difficulty with an excess of room on some particularly difficult areas and ultimate precision in others. It was eye opening, the difference to me as a kid from all the courses I had played


Later as I traveled and got to play more, it was amazing that the course I never got tonokay always was the course that sticks in my mind.   

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2019, 01:57:56 PM »
Archie,

I don't know about that.  Its one thing to have some local ams come thru where a no name guy occasionally shreds the course via a 64...

But an entirely different thing to air the same to an International TV audience where top notch players are blistering the course and broadcasting the carnage for all to see every last juicy detail....


Kalyn,


Forgive me if you didn’t mean to suggest it, but Bob Lewis is not exactly a “no name” guy. There aren’t many golfers who have won as many Walker Cup matches as Lewis.
Tim Weiman

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2019, 02:03:45 PM »
 ??? ???


 :o    Kalen I'm not up to speed on all the goings on there these days but do have a few loopers that occasionally regale me with some stories. Think Rory was thru recently and back in the day I had Tom Watson, David Graham, Ben Crenshaw and a slightly paunchy and elderly Bob Murphy ( whose slice plays well there) thru within a couple of months of each other. Lowest score I saw was 66 and that's under normal conditions.


that day I spoke of think Shinnecock the last day when Reteif Goosen won, on tougher greens. It was ferocious with again, no rough and little wind.


Also Jay Sigel isn't a local amateur passing thru ....oops





JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2019, 02:21:27 PM »
I grew up in New Jersey playing a Van Etten/Ross changed course.  My dad was a golf pro and I was able to go play many of the very good courses in the state. I was spoiled, and loved architecture.  Drawing courses in notebooks, holes in the borders of note paper in class ( not a great student you can imagine).


My brother made it to the finals of the Crump Cup when I was about 14.  And I walked the course while he played.  At that age I was amazed at the place. I also remember thinking there was always a scale to the difficulty with an excess of room on some particularly difficult areas and ultimate precision in others. It was eye opening, the difference to me as a kid from all the courses I had played


Later as I traveled and got to play more, it was amazing that the course I never got tonokay always was the course that sticks in my mind.   





Since your opinion is more equal than others', you want to hazard a guess?


Assume a 72 hole event set up like most PGAT courses--an extra foot or more of green speed, hide a few flags each day, etc.


What score wins at PVGC?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2019, 02:35:12 PM »
Haven’t played PVGC but have played Oakmont in a West PA Amateur state and several times since.  Oakmont players were better all around because they got to play such a great and difficult course.   But... my preference has always been to seek courses I would like to play all the time, not just as a rare test.   But my preference is to play courses and tees near 70 or 72 course rating where I have a goof chance to break bar on a good day - a la Bandon or many in the UK.   I have lots of buddies that always want to play super hard courses where they are just happy to break 80,  that’s not my style.  It’s all about how you learned the game.  PVGC and ANGC are courses that few will find “normal.” 


Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2019, 03:00:10 PM »
Mike - Great insights and looks like you had fantastic weather to boot. A number of years ago I played with a friend (his first time there and a solid 5 handicap). He's a member at Whisper Rock, Secession, and a couple other very nice clubs in the Chicagoland area. He was almost speechless after the round, reflecting on the challenge and variety of the course.


I think a touring professional would rarely hit driver there and, as Tom Doak mentioned, would likely go very low (unless they really amped up the green speeds and had really difficult pin positions). But for golfers of mortal length and skill it's an incredible test.


And my 5 handicap friend had a very poor tee shot on #1 (didn't make the fairway), took a 6, and then eagled #2. Seem to recall he shot around 82.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2019, 03:05:09 PM »
;D ;)




Mr. Doak's comment that the powers that be might be protecting PV from being torn up by the tour pros rings hollow to me. They specifically don't trick it up for daily play and plenty of "sticks" and tour pros come thru there on a regular basis. Occasionally a low score occurs and tends to be celebrated with a chorus of well done!


Having been there for  the infamous Crump Cup qualifier when superintendent Bator got his revenge on the blasphemers who echoed TD'S sentiments,  I can tell you the golf course was terrifying that day!  This with no rough to speak of and barely a hint of wind.






p.s.  Bob Lewis shot 64 the previous year on a wet slow golf course....Bator seethed for a year but got even ...77 (Jay Sigel) was low and 85 made championship flight , will never forget it


Is  there any top course in the world that under normal conditions (not tricked up, no insane weather) wouldn't be easy for tour pro's in 2019? It's barely 7000 yards from the tips and these guys know their distances to the yard and are insanely good out of the sand.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2019, 03:15:45 PM »
Not trying to be disrespectful of Bob Lewis, looks like he was before my time.

My only point was if you get all the worlds best on that course with all the modern equipment and such, i suspect at least a few of them would go low and the overall winner would be in double digits.  And at 7000 yards?..  that's not even long for these guys anymore....

Hey if I'm PV, I never let it happen either...better to keep the myth alive and have em guessing, Lord knows the PGA boys have shredded other difficult courses...

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2019, 03:39:12 PM »
Merion weighed in under 6900 yards at least one day in the 2013 U.S. Open.  Winner finished over par. 

From everything I've heard about PV, the club wouldn't take the steps Merion did to keep scores high.  But it also sounds like they won't have to.  Run the greens at, say, 13.  Make the maintenance fast and furious. 

Is PV harder than Pebble?  Than ANGC?  With easy/favorable conditions, the pro's have their way at those two courses.  But when they play fast, and hard, and the weather doesn't cooperate, they make the pro's look pretty foolish. 

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2019, 03:50:21 PM »
I think one of the issues with PV hosting the pros is holes like 6 and 16, which to my recollection (over 20 years since I had the chance now, but remember it pretty vividly) ask a pretty good question of how brave you want to be off the tee. For the pros, those two holes they don't even notice the bunkers. They can carry them all and then they have 70 odd yards of fairway to land it in. That's going to let them shoot some decent scores. Granted if you make the greens hard and fast, it will be harder and if you stuck one PGA Tour player out there you might wind up with them shooting 72+, but put an entire field out there and someone is going to shoot something low. Unless they get ridiculous with the pin placements.

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2019, 03:58:12 PM »
Today’s pro field would shoot their typical scores compared to the course rating at PV just like anywhere else.  Numbers are numbers.  The average tour course plays to a course rating of 74 something and that’s before toughening for a tour event.  PVGC has a course rating of 75.2 at 7052 yards according to what I see.  Winged Foot is 7258 and 75.5.  ANGC is 7485 yards and 76.2.  I have a hard time thinking that PVGC would play harder for the tour than Augusta.  300 and in the fairway disarms more of of Pine Valley’s defenses than Augusta, right?


But I don’t think that is the point of this discussion!  GCA is NOT about tour pros.  Everyone I know who has played PVGC has described it as great but basically exhausting.  That’s not my ideal of golf. 



Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2019, 04:14:29 PM »
PV can be exhausting if you are off your game. If you know what you can and can't do, make a game plan and stick to it the course is very playable. Get out of position and you're done if you don't take your medicine and get back in play. My son stood on the sixth tee one over par. He looked at number six, one of the easier holes and proclaimed, "I'm going to cut the corner." I told him just to hit it out to the left and you'll have no more than an 8 iron in. Nope. He stood on the 7th tee four over.


Play smart and you can score. Be foolhardy and take your double or triple.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2019, 04:17:21 PM »
That’s not my ideal of golf.


Ah but golf and golf courses are two different things, no?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2019, 07:03:27 PM »
That’s not my ideal of golf.


Ah but golf and golf courses are two different things, no?


Let me restate.  Pine Valley is not my benchmark as the best possible golf course. 

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pine Valley is in its own class architecturally.
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2019, 09:24:21 PM »
I grew up in New Jersey playing a Van Etten/Ross changed course.  My dad was a golf pro and I was able to go play many of the very good courses in the state. I was spoiled, and loved architecture.  Drawing courses in notebooks, holes in the borders of note paper in class ( not a great student you can imagine).


My brother made it to the finals of the Crump Cup when I was about 14.  And I walked the course while he played.  At that age I was amazed at the place. I also remember thinking there was always a scale to the difficulty with an excess of room on some particularly difficult areas and ultimate precision in others. It was eye opening, the difference to me as a kid from all the courses I had played


Later as I traveled and got to play more, it was amazing that the course I never got tonokay always was the course that sticks in my mind.   





Since your opinion is more equal than others', you want to hazard a guess?


Assume a 72 hole event set up like most PGAT courses--an extra foot or more of green speed, hide a few flags each day, etc.


What score wins at PVGC?


No chance I answer without disagreeing on the very first line!


Hard greens, just beyond firm, no rain, normal winds, a lot of low scores , but likely a few others that would keep the field spread.  Even when my brother played way back when, he regularly used a 1 iron, and I seem to remember Sigel hitting a lot of 4 woods.  Because of the ability to hit a lot of layups, without going to silly hole locations I feel like the scoring would be pretty low at top of the board.


US Open hard greens and hidden pins, the difficulty of controlling distances in to shallow targets would produce some ugly moments for players.


If it was soft, no wind, scores that would piss off a lot of people




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