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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
What is the role of awkward?
« on: June 23, 2019, 09:16:48 AM »
We have all stood over a shot that has felt awkward. TOUR pros stay away from courses that don't fit their game. Some courses have to many awkward shots for them. When I was a member at Four Streams the tee shot from the back tee on number eight was awkward for me. It is a cape hole to the right, and try as I may most of my tee shots ended up in the left rough. The angle of the cape got to me. The tee shot on number five at Pine Valley is awkward for just about everybody. The green cants left to right with trees and sloping hill to the right. I aim my tee ball to the left front of the green no matter where the pin is. Four is a better score than X. Just ask Gene Littler. Number 14 at the Dormie Club has an easy tee shot but the second shot is very awkward. The green is small and everything goes left to right. It is a short hole so the second shot isn't long, just awkward. Hit is left and the shot will bound over the green and down the hill. There is no run-up to the hole. I just can't hit the shot required. It is awkward.


That is why angles are important. Hit the tee shot to the incorrect side of the fairway and the shot into the green is awkward. I think that awkward shots can be the best tool in an architect's tool belt.



Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2019, 12:12:53 PM »
Awkward ought to encourage the player to think. Which is fine by me.
Not all players though like (or are able?) to think and modern equipment and tendencies in course set-ups may well diminish the requirement to use the brain.
Bobby Jones once said "Golf is a game that is played on a 5 inch course - the distance between your ears." If he were still with us I wonder if he'd say that now?

atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2019, 01:48:59 PM »
Is there a distinction between awkward and challenging?
A long dogleg right with a reverse camber (ie right to left sloping) fairway is a neat challenge -- and to me looks cool.
A long dogleg left with a bend-point at 180 yards is awkward -- and to me looks as if the architect made a mistake.
The first invites a controlled fade to not only get around the corner but also staying on the (preferred) high side - but doesn't unduly punish (except with a longer approach) the average golfer who bunts out a straight ball or a weaker fade that trundles down the slope. And it seems that the architect has properly used the land and did a fine job of routing.
The second only disconcerts the average golfer, who no matter how smartly and well chooses & then hits the right club off the tee, knows that he'll be left with an exceedingly long approach shot. And it seems that the architect got himself jammed up with his routing and 'land use' and allowed himself a mediocre hole.


« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 01:57:23 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2019, 02:31:05 PM »
I'm curious about the relationship between quirk and awkward,,,and if Awkward is just one type of quirk?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 02:36:37 PM by Kalen Braley »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2019, 02:59:24 PM »
Peter, I think awkward and challenging walk in the same pair of pants. Certainly awkward shots that don't fit your eye are challenging. I don't think all challenging shots are awkward.  The eighth hole at four streams just doesn't fit any shot pattern I have. If I fade it I end up in the right rough behind a tree. The cant of the cape doesn't fit the fade I can hit. If I hit it dead straight on the correct line I'm good. If I pull it a bit I am in the left rough. My favored shot shape is right to left. It doesn't work on that hole. If I hit a three wood I have a long second shot to a sloping green left to right. With a bunker left and front it makes that shot challenging. It isn't awkward because I can hit the shot. It is challenging because it is a difficult shot to pull off.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2019, 06:00:43 PM »
Awkward is the best way to challenge the +5 golfer.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 08:56:04 AM »

Peter,


Yes, there is a difference between awkward and challenging!  While it may not be the ideal for most around here, I try to minimize awkward, because hardly anyone really likes it (when it happens to them, if it happens to their opponent, so much the better, LOL)


Of course, there are awkward lies, which to me is part of rub of the green.  And, I have always allowed or graded fw areas at more than the minimum, which gives a slightly different lie every time you play (i.e., 3-5% rather than 2%, which is close enough to flat for most to not notice the contour of the lie)


But, I sense the question is about awkward shots, like a long iron off a downhill sloping lie to an uphill green, or due to crosswinds, having to aim over water to hit a green or fw.  (i.e., the physics of golf reduce greatly the chance of success on a well struck shot.  Those are beyond awkward, IMHO, and maybe even outside the realm of a fair but uncomfortable challenge.


Having crosswinds from out to in, i.e., on the low side still create a challenging shot in judging the drift controlling shot pattern, etc.  I mean, you still have to hit a green in a cross wind, which is hard enough (and, BTW, I would probably also use a pretty wide green.  My mentors once did a skinny green in a crosswind and were roundly criticized for it) for anyone.


However, a conservative miss turns into a bail out, not a water hazard or O.B., and the resulting 2 stroke penalty (maybe one if truly a lateral hazard.  I don't go out of my way to create any shot that is purposely awkward, but then again, I can't know every degree of awkward across a range of players, nor does the land always allow theoretically "perfect" comfort conditions, so a few of them probably creep up on every course I have designed.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 09:16:23 AM »
Tommy,  I think part of the awkwardness of Number 8 at Four Streams is the limited visualness of the fairway from the tee box.  No matter how many times I payed it and knew the correct line I just couldn’t pull off the shot.  On Cape holes I get committed to a line and then pick a target and get very focused on the target.   On 8 I knew the tree that was my target but rarely pulled it off.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2019, 12:21:29 PM »
Jeff, I remember when I played the Quarry there were a couple of tee shots that didn't fit my eye and felt awkward. It has been so many years ago that I played it I can't remember which ones they were. I would think it is almost impossible to design a course without a few awkward shots for everyone.


I played a course in Hawaii, Kauai, last year that had a bunch of doglegs. It was, of course, windy and the wind on many of the holes blew against the dogleg whee a dogleg right to left hd the wind blow from the left. No matter the wind direction you were going to have the wind from the "wrong" direction. Boy were they awkward.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 12:28:12 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2019, 12:29:49 PM »
Tommy,  I think part of the awkwardness of Number 8 at Four Streams is the limited visualness of the fairway from the tee box.  No matter how many times I payed it and knew the correct line I just couldn’t pull off the shot.  On Cape holes I get committed to a line and then pick a target and get very focused on the target.   On 8 I knew the tree that was my target but rarely pulled it off.


Paul, there were few holes where I played the back tee. That was one because the other tees didn't exact the same thrill as the back tee.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2019, 07:36:43 PM »

Tommy,


I will hazard a guess that the awkward tee shot was 15.  Its the one I hear most complaints about.  The fw ends, and it feels like it goes further left from some positions on the tee, when in fact it does no such thing.  A result of originally thinking I would do a speed slot on the left, allowing some golfers to roll one down the hill if they caught it, and go home with a story of reaching a 470 yard par 4 with driver/wedge.  The, a small pocket of wetlands, and the MN DNR had different thoughts.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What is the role of awkward?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 08:36:41 AM »
When I think of awkward one hole pops to mind, which is the 14th on the course I grew up on (Effingham in Surrey). There is out of bounds flanked by trees on the right and then trees on the left pinch in at right around 270 yards. The hole is 400 yards long give or take and it's too narrow for me to hit my driver. There's also a bunker on the left hand side that's around 240 from the tee, so if you go in that, you've got about 160 (it's a slight dogleg right) in to a smallish green. The fairway also slopes left, so anything within ten yards of the bunker will go in it. Over the bunker and you're starting to get into the trees that pinch in blocking you. Here's the real kicker though. It slopes left, but only from the inside edge of the trees on the right. If you hit it at those, it doesn't kick down and you'll wind up behind or in them. Here's a google maps link to it: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.2559304,-0.4045188,210m/data=!3m1!1e3


It's not an easy shot obviously, but I also have a lot of memory of bad shots built up on it and I think that makes it worse. I just feel uncomfortable on it. Lately I've taken to just hitting something that finishes short of the bunker. Then you have 5 iron plus into a green that at most is about 18 yards wide. Missing it is no picnic. It's really not as hard as I make it though. It just feels awkward.

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