Guilty as Charged - CB Macdonald

[David Wigler]

Ok I admit it, I have tastes.  I happen to like Blondes.  I am a chest man not a leg man; I like Raynor's work, etc.  When did this become wrong?  

Yesterday, I had my first chance to play a CB Macdonald course - St Louis CC.  Wow!  It was fantastic.  Let's start with the obvious, #2 and #3 are the best back-to-back par threes on the planet (Save 15 and 16 at Cypress).  Any list of the best 10 par 3's in the country that does not have #3 (Eden) should be trashed.  #2 is the 2nd best Biarritz I have ever played (Next to ShoreAcres).  #4 is a very cool Road Hole and a bear.  #5 has one of the best greens and affords one of the neatest approach shots I have ever seen.  #8 is one of the better river-based Cape's I have played.  The green complex on #12 is flat out special!  #18 is a classic finishing hole.  The whole course is magic.  I just checked Golfweek's Rankings: NCR, Moraine, Country Club of Detroit, Indianwood Old, Firestone (FIRESTONE???) are all higher  .  What?  Someone please explain to me what I missed.  How is this not one of the best fifty courses in the country?  What is it lacking?  Heck, Digest has some course in the Ozarks above it in the Missouri state rankings.

Go ahead Shooter, Shivas and the rest of you brunette liking, leg men, Raynor bashers and explain it to me.

[David Wigler]

Dave,

You and I have had this discussion off line as well.  When I have a hamburger, it takes time to figure out how good it was.  Let's face it, there are thousands of hamburgers and it is hard to differentiate between them.  On the other hand, when I have awesome Chateau Briand, it is fairly easy to put it in its proper place almost immediately.  St. Louis falls in the later category.  So go ahead Raynor hater.  Are you going to duck this or tell me what I missed?

[David Wigler]

and I suppose you hit every club in the bag, too.  

I figured you would use this excuse, so I wrote down each club I used.  I used 13 clubs (Never hit the 6 Iron).  The 5 par 3's were 4-iron, 5-iron ( I was deep and should have hit the 6-iron), 8-iron, 7-iron, 5-iron.

So yes smartass  , I did use every club in my bag.

[Peter_Herreid]

David--

I agree with you completely re: SLCC.  I started a thread on the course, with a few pictures, back in early September in which I wondered if it was a near-perfect course for a GCA mid-handicapper, given its rich variety of playing options, historic value, CBM pedigree, etc...

Why is it not ranked higher?  Who cares!   It's probably the same reason a number of other courses don't "rank"--1) not that many people get to play the course/play it more than once/have played it in many years or since some of the restoration efforts  2)  It's in St. Louis, not the mid-Atlantic/Northeast   3)  It hasn't sought out the limelight, and doesn't need to, etc....

Hard to call this one a "hidden gem", but in terms of GCA, I think it fits...

Peter

[Scott_Burroughs]

While I am a brunette and leg man, I haven't played SLCC, so I can't make the comparison to the 3 R/CBM-type courses I've played, Yeamans Hall, Yale, and Shoreacres.  I would say that Yale's Biarritz is better than SA's (and YH), although SA's is by far the largest green I've ever seen (it even has a drainage grate in the middle of it!).

You say that the b-to-b par 3's at SLCC are 2nd only to CPC. Have you played Pacific Dunes?  In reality, how many courses have b-to-b par 3's?

[David Wigler]

Scott,

#2 and #3 at St. Louis are better IMO

[David Wigler]

David--

I agree with you completely re: SLCC.  I started a thread on the course, with a few pictures, back in early September in which I wondered if it was a near-perfect course for a GCA mid-handicapper, given its rich variety of playing options, historic value, CBM pedigree, etc...Peter

Peter,

I do what i assume most people do on GCA - I look at titles and pick which threads I will read.  As a 5-handicap, I missed your thread.  You did a great job explaining the course.  One bone to pick, why did you feel that it was for 12-handicaps?  This course works for golfers off all skill levels.  The greens and par 3's will protect par from anyone.  I had a great round going until 17 caught me with a 7.  Simply put, this is one of the best courses in the country and I don't get how someone could play it and feel differently.

[Peter_Herreid]

David--

I hope that my September post didn't imply that it wasn't a great and fun course for players of all skill levels, as I feel the reverse is true.  I was only trying to demonstrate that St. Louis CC was a particularly great course for a history and architecture loving, wild swinging mid-handicapper, as not only did it offer all the previous mentioned attributes, but it could also be played by steering one's way around back into play from bad positions, not requiring brutish forced carries, etc.

If (and I emphasize if) one were a long-hitting low handicapper that felt that some added length with today's technology were a requirement for a lofty ranking, then I think SLCC might fall short in that player's eyes, as I'm not sure there's much more room anywhere to expand beyond where the tees are now---but I think those folks might be missing a terrific, but little-heralded track...

Peter

[Paul Richards]

David:

The only thing I can tell you is that CB's best Redan hole is at Chicago Golf Club.

And I have the ace there to prove it!!!

[Paul Richards]

Dave:

You are correct.  SLCC is one of the best courses around, certainly the best in St. Louis (that's correct, it's better than Bellerive and, certainly, Old Warson).  In fact, out of Raynor's stuff, I think it's a better golf course than most - better than Fox Chapel, better than Shoreacres, even.  The only negative to the place, was, like so many of the classics, it is severely overtreed.  You could play SLCC every day and enjoy every minute of it!

[MBL]

Dave-

The pin must have been up front on #2 (or you are a VERY BIG man).  

SLCC sure is a special place.  

-MBL

[David Wigler]

MBL,

The pin was about 3 feet past the swale in back.  I had a pretty strong left to right wind and decided that the best shot was a low running hook.  The tee was up a little so it was playing 205 Middle, 210 pin, 180 front.  I hit my 6-iron 180-190.  I should have figured that if I carried it 180 yards, than it would have settled below the hole in the swale for an easy par.  As it was, I carried my 5-iron to the middle of the green where it hit the downside of the biarritz and ran to the back left fringe.  It is a very touchy shot from there, where getting a little too aggressive ends up in the pit below the hole.

[David Wigler]

Dave:

You are correct.  SLCC is one of the best courses around, certainly the best in St. Louis (that's correct, it's better than Bellerive and, certainly, Old Warson).  In fact, out of Raynor's stuff, I think it's a better golf course than most - better than Fox Chapel, better than Shoreacres, even.  The only negative to the place, was, like so many of the classics, it is severely overtreed.  You could play SLCC every day and enjoy every minute of it!

Why do you think GW has it rated below courses like Indianwood, CCD, NCR and FIRESTONE?

[Hunt]

George Peper agrees with you on Eden as he has it in his 500 Greatest Holes.  

I saw those rankings a while back on The Lake of the Ozarks course that beat out SLCC and that's when you know credibility, ideology, inability to gain access or general knowledge comes in to play.  

I am not implying GW's rankings are wrong-that's one groups opinion. Some folks value the ability to hold a major as the bar on rankings, others prefer classical layouts, etc. Everybody is working from a different ideal.

Therein lies the answer to Mr. Wigler's question on ranking.

[Paul Richards]

Dave:

Great question You said:

>Why do you think GW has it rated below courses like Indianwood, CCD, NCR and FIRESTONE?

Actually, I often wonder the same thing.  Haven't been to Indianwood yet, CCD is great, but SLCC is better.  NCR doesn't belong on any list -it's a joke that it's on so many lists!  And Firestone is a tough championship test - but a great course, NOT!

[George_Bahto]

I think St. Louis tends to discourage raters.

[Paul Richards]

George:

That may be true.  But they tend to be a resourceful bunch.  So Raters out there, find a way onto SLCC because it is well worth it!!