[Ronald Montesano]

To qualify, I would say a course needs to have at least 4-5 holes directly on the sea.

Man, this is your poll, so get rid of the conditional "would" and give a definitive "say"! Yes, I'm shouting.

[Jeff Schley]

Of those I have played North Berwick is my favorite due to the variety of the course, with large run outs and the pure necessity of needing a caddie to tell you where to hit your first time.)
Also just played European Club, RCD, Lahinch, Ballybunion, Trump Doonbeg and of those Ballybunion was my favorite which I'll get into in another post.

[James Brown]

I am surprised no one has mentioned Turnberry yet?

[James Brown]

My implicit point was that Dornoch is VERY seaside and gets bonus points in most minds for that reason, even though it’s layout wins on the merits otherwise. [size=78%]  Hoylake is on the borderline in terms of seaside exposure.   Never played it but I don’t think you can see the seaside from more than few holes.  [/size]

So your distinction is really about visual elements rather than golf?

Visual elements are certainly an important part.  [size=78%]So much of the discussion here is about which courses are better or ranked higher and I think there is what I would call an “aesthetic premium” that we apply to courses by the sea.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Of the 18 Gourmet’s Choice courses in Volume 1,  9 are seaside courses.  In Volume 2, 6 are next to the sea.  How much of the seaside factor is about soil and wind and the nature of the land and good design and how of that is aesthetic?  [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]I love the Bandon Courses, but being on the sea is what makes that place truly special.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size]

[James Brown]

It is an odd descriptor, "seaside link" and the 4-5 hole directly on the sea is not entirely clear, but if I do understand you, I would say arguably N Berwick, Castle Stuart, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island and St Enodoc are all better than Dornoch. That said, I would rather play only a few of those more than Dornoch....St Enodoc and North Berwick.

Ciao

I'd be very interested to see a Dornoch/NBWL matchplay line up.  Off the top of my head that would be close.  But I wouldn't instinctively put NBWL ahead of Dornoch.  And I certainly wouldn't put St Enodoc ahead of Dornoch.

Here is my pass at a Match Play for Dornoch and NB.


Hole 1:  NB wins by a hair
Hole 2:  NB no contest.
Hole 3:  Dornoch.  First awesome green.
Hole 4:  Dornoch gets on the Board. 
Hole 5:  Dornoch again.
Hole 6:  NB by a hair again
Hole 7:  Dornoch wins on the quality of the green
Hole 8:  Dornoch.  That green is awesome.
Hole 9:  NB.  That par five forces at least three big strategic decisions.


Dornoch 1 up.


Hole 10:  Battle of similar par 3s.  NB wins by a hair.
Hole 11:  NB by a hair.  Another great green.
Hole 12:  Dornoch by a hair.
Hole 13:  NB hands down.
Hole 14:  Dornoch hands down.
Hole 15:  NB hands down
Hole 16:  Dornoch by a hair.   I also hate the green at 16 at NB more than maybe any hole on earth, even though it is really interesting. 
Hole 17:  Dornoch on the strength of the green. 
Hole 18:  NB by a hair just cause that hole is an interesting closer and 18 at Dornoch is a brute with little nuance into the wind. 


This ends in a tie!

[Bill Brightly]

F. I. Not a links! All links are seaside by definition!

But, given your qualification, the obvious answer is Pacific Dunes!

 

Garland, are you disqualifying Fishers Island because of the soil? Man, the course sure played linksy when I was there...

[Garland Bayley]

F. I. Not a links! All links are seaside by definition!

But, given your qualification, the obvious answer is Pacific Dunes!

 

Garland, are you disqualifying Fishers Island because of the soil? Man, the course sure played linksy when I was there...

George Peper disqualified it. I just reported on its disqualification.

Besides if you pick the right day of the year, most courses can play linksy.

[Sean_A]

It is an odd descriptor, "seaside link" and the 4-5 hole directly on the sea is not entirely clear, but if I do understand you, I would say arguably N Berwick, Castle Stuart, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island and St Enodoc are all better than Dornoch. That said, I would rather play only a few of those more than Dornoch....St Enodoc and North Berwick.

Ciao

I'd be very interested to see a Dornoch/NBWL matchplay line up.  Off the top of my head that would be close.  But I wouldn't instinctively put NBWL ahead of Dornoch.  And I certainly wouldn't put St Enodoc ahead of Dornoch.

Here is my pass at a Match Play for Dornoch and NB.

Hole 1:  NB wins by a hair
Hole 2:  NB no contest.
Hole 3:  Dornoch.  First awesome green.
Hole 4:  Dornoch gets on the Board. 
Hole 5:  Dornoch again.
Hole 6:  NB by a hair again
Hole 7:  Dornoch wins on the quality of the green
Hole 8:  Dornoch.  That green is awesome.
Hole 9:  NB.  That par five forces at least three big strategic decisions.

Dornoch 1 up.

Hole 10:  Battle of similar par 3s.  NB wins by a hair.
Hole 11:  NB by a hair.  Another great green.
Hole 12:  Dornoch by a hair.
Hole 13:  NB hands down.
Hole 14:  Dornoch hands down.
Hole 15:  NB hands down
Hole 16:  Dornoch by a hair.   I also hate the green at 16 at NB more than maybe any hole on earth, even though it is really interesting. 
Hole 17:  Dornoch on the strength of the green. 
Hole 18:  NB by a hair just cause that hole is an interesting closer and 18 at Dornoch is a brute with little nuance into the wind. 

This ends in a tie!

Here is my pass at the match.

1. H...its difficult to dismiss the awkwardness of NB's opener, but the greensite makes up the lost ground

2. NB...a great 4 beats a great 3 all day long

3. RD

4. RD...see #2

5. RD

6. RD

7. NB...the blind water hazard causes grief even though the green is huge!

8. RD

9. H...too tight to call

Dornoch turns 3 up, but NB has its famed back 9!

10. NB...battle of 3s easily goes to the way of the southern foe

11. H...I am inclined to give this to NB because its a 5, but RD's green is too cool

12. H...neither hole is terribly special though

13. NB...The Pit

14. RD....Foxy...though this is a close call

15. NB...Redan beats a medicore par 4

16. NB...the green wins the day over an uphill slog to a boring green.. I strongly dislike this hole

17. H...very tough call

18. NB for its charm and RD's hole is a bit of a slog finisher which finishes miles from the house... I rarely dislike holes, but this is one

NB wins the back nine 4 up and wins the match 1up. 

If I had to award a winner to each hole

1. RD ...cool contours

9. NB...the relatonship of the wall, centreline bunkers and green win the day....though I think the green should favour the tight line even more

11. NB...par 5 and a good one too

12. RD...par 5, plus NB's hole has been mucked about far too much...pisses me off

17. NB...I really dislike all the gorse around the RD's 17th, plus technology has not done the hole favours

It is interesting because often times what I think of as the better course loses these matchplays, but this time that wasn't the case.  The many very high highs of NB wins the day.  That said, strangely, I think Dornoch is the more "perfect" course. 

Ciao

[Ira Fishman]

Regarding the RD v NB match play, it may be close hole by hole, but overall NB is a clear winner in my book.  First, there are zero truly undesirable holes at NB where I found 16 (like Sean) and 18 unappealing strategically and visually at RD.  Second, there is no repetition of holes at NB where as noted in the recent RD thread, several are similar in design.  Third, the highs of NB as Sean notes are really high. 


Regarding the best seaside links question, we played Crail Balcomie last week.  It certainly is not the best golf (although it has a number of very good holes, including all Four Par 3s on the Back), but it has the best views of any seaside course I have played which includes CPC, Lahinch, Ballybunion, PD, NB, RD, Castle Stuart, Brora, Kingsbarns, and even Old Head.


Ira

[Kalen Braley]

Being a splitting hairs kind of guy, I was hoping to have more discussion around:

"Seaside vs Ocean Side vs Ocean Front vs <WhateverFitsHere>"...with examples.

For example how would you compare say Pebble vs TOC.

[Jeff Schley]

Being a splitting hairs kind of guy, I was hoping to have more discussion around:

"Seaside vs Ocean Side vs Ocean Front vs <WhateverFitsHere>"...with examples.

For example how would you compare say Pebble vs TOC.

We could, but is Pebble a links as the thread title states? Ocean front yes, but not a links.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Good point, bad comparison.  How about TOC vs Pac Dunes?

[Mark Buzminski]

I thought I was in heaven when I got up on the tee boxes of 10 and 11 at North Berwick.

[Thomas Dai]

The views from Cruit Island and/or Mulranny take some beating.
Atb

[James Brown]

Being a splitting hairs kind of guy, I was hoping to have more discussion around:

"Seaside vs Ocean Side vs Ocean Front vs <WhateverFitsHere>"...with examples.

For example how would you compare say Pebble vs TOC.

[size=78%]I think Tom misunderstood the point I was trying to make,  which was to get at the question of just how much of a premium do “we” really put on courses with lots of seaside exposure?  I think we give a big boost to courses near the top of the spectrum on this basis.   [/size]


I really think that Bandon Trails is the best course at Bandon from what I would consider a pure architectural standpoint.  Yet I have played it the least of the 4 because the lure of the ocean is just so damn big and my playing partners pull towards BD and PD. 

[Sean_A]

In reply #3 Tom mentions the visual element of design. He has also said many times that it is not surprising so many of the highly ranked modern courses are on large bodies of water. I think he gets the idea eye candy.

To me Dornoch is just one of many very attractive links in GB&I whether directly on the water or not.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think external views affect me less on links courses than on other courses.


Probably because there is more going on with ground contours and long internal views. The interesting landscape resides within the course.

[Bill Brightly]

Garland, are you disqualifying Fishers Island because of the soil? Man, the course sure played linksy when I was there...


George Peper disqualified it. I just reported on its disqualification.

Besides if you pick the right day of the year, most courses can play linksy.



Well, George is wrong.I imagine it was a technical point such as type of grass or soil.


Most courses can't offer this EVERY day:


https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/fishers-island-club/

[Mark Chaplin]

I cannot see how anyone thinks the 26th at RD is anything other than a boring uphill slog. For me 17 does little to improve a final three that massively underwhelm. Certainly stops the course being a world top 50 in my eyes.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I cannot see how anyone thinks the 26th at RD is anything other than a boring uphill slog. For me 17 does little to improve a final three that massively underwhelm. Certainly stops the course being a world top 50 in my eyes.

Where's Rcih when he's needed.  This is fighting talk!!!


If memory serves, a drive up the LHS is required for the best line in. This risks a massive fall away, from whence the green is impossible.  One tough ask.


Ps Does Mark hold the record?  Personally speaking, I've never played a match of more than 21 holes.

[Tony_Muldoon]

For the feeling of playing right 'by' the sea, I've yet to beat Dunbar.  After the first 3 holes you never feel you are above the level of a spring tide. The smell of seAweed and the waves on the rocks is most compelling.


At NBWL you only get that feeling on the first tee and 14th green (and second shot on the 2nd😀). At RD the 9th tee.


On most links courses you play in Dunes, elevated from the beach.

[Sean_A]

At NBWL you only get that feeling on the first tee and 14th green (and second shot on the 2nd). At RD the 9th tee.

Hmm... 1, 2 , 11 tee, 13 green & 14 green. 

Dunbar is a good shout, but not of the quality to compete with Dornoch.

Ciao

[William_G]

My implicit point was that Dornoch is VERY seaside and gets bonus points in most minds for that reason, even though it’s layout wins on the merits otherwise. [size=78%]  Hoylake is on the borderline in terms of seaside exposure.   Never played it but I don’t think you can see the seaside from more than few holes.  [/size]

So your distinction is really about visual elements rather than golf?

TD, you cannot separate the 2, just like life

[William_G]

What great posts.  What I was trying to get at is the differentiation between “near the sea” and “seaside.”  TOC and Muirfield and Lytham and Birkdale and are clearly links courses,  but not seaside links.  North Berwick and Dornoch might be the two best specimens we have.

James,



Dornoch gets no nearer the sea than TOC so I am perplexed as to your definition. It seems to me this is more of a pissing contest over which course has the most holes with sea views.


What makes a course good or not is the golf not the setting otherwise the bench on Flamborough Head would trump Dornoch hands down  On the point you make I would suggest that Brora is comfortably the equal of Dornoch in the point of views and setting and for me offers a purer links experience from a playing point of view.

the setting is one thing to rate as best, as is the golf yet the 2 are inseparable, symbiotic, not parasitic

[William_G]

Being a splitting hairs kind of guy, I was hoping to have more discussion around:

"Seaside vs Ocean Side vs Ocean Front vs <WhateverFitsHere>"...with examples.

For example how would you compare say Pebble vs TOC.

[size=78%]I think Tom misunderstood the point I was trying to make,  which was to get at the question of just how much of a premium do “we” really put on courses with lots of seaside exposure?  I think we give a big boost to courses near the top of the spectrum on this basis.   [/size]


I really think that Bandon Trails is the best course at Bandon from what I would consider a pure architectural standpoint.  Yet I have played it the least of the 4 because the lure of the ocean is just so damn big and my playing partners pull towards BD and PD.

Sheep Ranch 2.0 could have just as great of pull as the best links

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