[James Brown]

The most recent thread about Dornoch evoked a variety of praise and criticism. 


Dornoch is great in large measure because of its seaside setting.  Let’s not deny that.  Is it the greatest truly seaside links course?  If not, what would be your vote?  To qualify, I would say a course needs to have at least 4-5 holes directly on the sea. 


I think Dornoch is the greatest seaside links course I’ve played.  Others I would compare it to would be Western Gailes, North Berwick, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Ocean Course, Maidstone, Pebble Beach (not really a links), Cabot (x2) and Bandon (x3).


I’ve not played Cypress Point...


Some great links courses that I would say are not in the same category of truly seaside,  meaning with similar seaside exposure would be TOC, Muirfield, Shinnecock, NGLA, Birkdale and Hoylake. 

[Tom_Doak]

There is a difference between "seaside" and "oceanfront", but if Hoylake is not seaside enough for you, I'd suggest you stop trying to split hairs!

[James Brown]

My implicit point was that Dornoch is VERY seaside and gets bonus points in most minds for that reason, even though it’s layout wins on the merits otherwise. [size=78%]  Hoylake is on the borderline in terms of seaside exposure.   Never played it but I don’t think you can see the seaside from more than few holes.  [/size]

[Tom_Doak]

My implicit point was that Dornoch is VERY seaside and gets bonus points in most minds for that reason, even though it’s layout wins on the merits otherwise. [size=78%]  Hoylake is on the borderline in terms of seaside exposure.   Never played it but I don’t think you can see the seaside from more than few holes.  [/size]

So your distinction is really about visual elements rather than golf?

[James Brown]

Well, maybe.  Optics matter.  For ages we have debated questions like would Pebble (or Bandon) be as great if not on the ocean. 


Maybe the question I am trying to ask is:  for courses with similar extensive seaside exposure, what course could argue to be better than Dornoch?

[Sean_A]

It is an odd descriptor, "seaside link" and the 4-5 hole directly on the sea is not entirely clear, but if I do understand you, I would say arguably N Berwick, Castle Stuart, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island and St Enodoc are all better than Dornoch. That said, I would rather play only a few of those more than Dornoch....St Enodoc and North Berwick.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

It is an odd descriptor, "seaside link" and the 4-5 hole directly on the sea is not entirely clear, but if I do understand you, I would say arguably N Berwick, Castle Stuart, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island and St Enodoc are all better than Dornoch. That said, I would rather play only a few of those more than Dornoch....St Enodoc and North Berwick.

Ciao

I'd be very interested to see a Dornoch/NBWL matchplay line up.  Off the top of my head that would be close.  But I wouldn't instinctively put NBWL ahead of Dornoch.  And I certainly wouldn't put St Enodoc ahead of Dornoch.

[Sean_A]

It is an odd descriptor, "seaside link" and the 4-5 hole directly on the sea is not entirely clear, but if I do understand you, I would say arguably N Berwick, Castle Stuart, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Island and St Enodoc are all better than Dornoch. That said, I would rather play only a few of those more than Dornoch....St Enodoc and North Berwick.

Ciao

I'd be very interested to see a Dornoch/NBWL matchplay line up.  Off the top of my head that would be close.  But I wouldn't instinctively put NBWL ahead of Dornoch.  And I certainly wouldn't put St Enodoc ahead of Dornoch.

My gut tells me Dornoch would be a tough customer to beat in matchplay.  The one aspect about matchplay which is wanting is the standout holes aren't given their proper due.  A truly wonderful hole such as Foxy may well be worth three good holes...as an example.  The very high highs are worth a load to me and I am ok trading off lesser holes for that experience.  That doesn't mean a course won't suffer for the lesser holes, but playing the best/most unusual/interesting holes is worth a lot of my time.  Given the above, both NB and St E have a plethora of standout holes...hence one reason why I rank them higher than the usual suspects. However, I fully understand if folks take a different view...many good to very good holes can also skin the cat. But Dornoch has the good and FOXY!...thats why folks consistently rank it as one of the best in the world.

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

Just back from Ireland tour of Ballybunion Old 2, Cashen 1, Lahinch 1, Enniscrone 2, Portmarnock (walked a few holes), The Island Golf Club 1.

This series of threads makes me realize that I need to see The Old Course and Dornoch.

That said, I just loved Lahinch. I am a member of Enniscrone and that was so much fun when our trio was recognized by the locals at the Friday night awards ceremony and dinner. The remoteness makes it feel like "Old Ireland" and my son and Mr Moore were either very gracious with their comments about Enniscrone or they they genuinely had it at next level status.

That said, this is GCA and we over analyze everything.

Lahinch was preparing for The Irish Open, so it was very busy in a fun way. The first tee is simply my favorite to date of playing golf. Then you get to the third tee and it reached "other world" status for me:



I know that Tom Doak laments the loss of Alister's greens, but I loved the greens:



Finally, when you turn away from the ocean, and head down the inlet, we found one of our favorites:



It was a very windy day on a very windy trip. Lost tons of balls in the hay and such, and I should have moved up a set of tees. It was a one play day due to trip logistics, but it was top of the heap on a star studded trip. Loved it, and technically speaking, it never touches the ocean. 

[John Emerson]

Haven’t seen Dornoch, but Kilspindie, and North Berwick were simply fantastic in every imaginable way.

[Bill Brightly]

Fishers Island certainly has to be in the discussion. With 12 holes that touch the Long Island Sound, it is simply a spectacular golfing site. Which brings up a point: an island site like Fishers has a distinct advantage over a coastline property!

[Thomas Dai]

Dooks?
Atb

[MClutterbuck]

The most recent thread about Dornoch evoked a variety of praise and criticism. 


Dornoch is great in large measure because of its seaside setting.  Let’s not deny that.  Is it the greatest truly seaside links course?  If not, what would be your vote?  To qualify, I would say a course needs to have at least 4-5 holes directly on the sea. 


I think Dornoch is the greatest seaside links course I’ve played.  Others I would compare it to would be Western Gailes, North Berwick, Lahinch, Ballybunion, The Ocean Course, Maidstone, Pebble Beach (not really a links), Cabot (x2) and Bandon (x3).


I’ve not played Cypress Point...


Some great links courses that I would say are not in the same category of truly seaside,  meaning with similar seaside exposure would be TOC, Muirfield, Shinnecock, NGLA, Birkdale and Hoylake.

Neighboring Royal Troon is a better course than Western Gailes, in my opinion. Although both courses I think could be better with a better setup.

[Dan_Callahan]

Dornoch and North Berwick are just so different, other than the proximity to ocean. I loved both of them, but for different reasons. Dornoch for me was an incredible test, felt completely natural, and was the epitome (perhaps the Platonic form?) of what I picture when I think of a traditional links.


North Berwick. Made me laugh ... in a good way. From the opening tee shot that, despite how short the hole is, I still had a tough time picturing where I wanted to be. The stone walls throughout the course. People out there walking their dogs next to you while you play ... even showing up and having no idea where the clubhouse was or where I should park. It's the quirkiest damn place I've ever seen and every part of it was incredible.


I could play either course every single day and never get bored.

[Garland Bayley]

F. I. Not a links! All links are seaside by definition!

But, given your qualification, the obvious answer is Pacific Dunes!

[Rob Marshall]

Just back from Ireland tour of Ballybunion Old 2, Cashen 1, Lahinch 1, Enniscrone 2, Portmarnock (walked a few holes), The Island Golf Club 1.

This series of threads makes me realize that I need to see The Old Course and Dornoch.

That said, I just loved Lahinch. I am a member of Enniscrone and that was so much fun when our trio was recognized by the locals at the Friday night awards ceremony and dinner. The remoteness makes it feel like "Old Ireland" and my son and Mr Moore were either very gracious with their comments about Enniscrone or they they genuinely had it at next level status.

That said, this is GCA and we over analyze everything.

Lahinch was preparing for The Irish Open, so it was very busy in a fun way. The first tee is simply my favorite to date of playing golf. Then you get to the third tee and it reached "other world" status for me:



I know that Tom Doak laments the loss of Alister's greens, but I loved the greens:



Finally, when you turn away from the ocean, and head down the inlet, we found one of our favorites:



It was a very windy day on a very windy trip. Lost tons of balls in the hay and such, and I should have moved up a set of tees. It was a one play day due to trip logistics, but it was top of the heap on a star studded trip. Loved it, and technically speaking, it never touches the ocean. 

Thanks for posting the pictures. I loved Lahinch. The people were great and the town very cool. Surfing, who would have thought. The second shot into the 6th was spectacular. I would love to spend a few weeks there and really learn the course. Tough when you are playing one round and moving on.

[Mark Chaplin]

Garland as someone who plays 90% of his golf on a seaside links I’d say Ballyneal is a links without the sea.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland as someone who plays 90% of his golf on a seaside links I’d say Ballyneal is a links without the sea.

Just using the links definition in True Links. If Chambers Bay, which borders on a salt water inlet, is not a links, then Ballyneal doesn't qualify either.

[Mike Bodo]

Just back from Ireland tour of Ballybunion Old 2, Cashen 1, Lahinch 1, Enniscrone 2, Portmarnock (walked a few holes), The Island Golf Club 1.

This series of threads makes me realize that I need to see The Old Course and Dornoch.

That said, I just loved Lahinch. I am a member of Enniscrone and that was so much fun when our trio was recognized by the locals at the Friday night awards ceremony and dinner. The remoteness makes it feel like "Old Ireland" and my son and Mr Moore were either very gracious with their comments about Enniscrone or they they genuinely had it at next level status.

That said, this is GCA and we over analyze everything.

Great photos, Mike and nice finish on your swing in that first one.    Thanks for sharing moments of your trip to Ireland with us. Makes me want to book a trip there myself and play many of the same courses you did.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Garland as someone who plays 90% of his golf on a seaside links I’d say Ballyneal is a links without the sea.

Just using the links definition in True Links. If Chambers Bay, which borders on a salt water inlet, is not a links, then Ballyneal doesn't qualify either.

I feel that every definition I’ve ever seen of a “links” is so simplified that no-one has ever done it justice. So I’ll just add this.


Links land sand dunes have to have been created by wind AND wave. If the sand is not created by water deposits shaped further by wind, then it cannot be a links. Of course, this may have happened in the distant past in places such as Ballyneal?


But it’s worth noting that many desert dunes form only because of dryness, differing temperatures and wind gradually breaking down rock in to sand particles. No wave or water generation.

[Mike Sweeney]

Links land sand dunes have to have been created by wind AND wave. If the sand is not created by water deposits shaped further by wind, then it cannot be a links. Of course, this may have happened in the distant past in places such as Ballyneal?

Ally,


Arguably yes:


https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/sharks-once-roamed-nebraskas-ancient-seas/

[Garland Bayley]

Links land sand dunes have to have been created by wind AND wave. If the sand is not created by water deposits shaped further by wind, then it cannot be a links. Of course, this may have happened in the distant past in places such as Ballyneal?

Ally,


Arguably yes:


https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/sharks-once-roamed-nebraskas-ancient-seas/

That kind of looks like Puget Sound to me.

[James Brown]

What great posts.  What I was trying to get at is the differentiation between “near the sea” and “seaside.”  TOC and Muirfield and Lytham and Birkdale and are clearly links courses,  but not seaside links.  North Berwick and Dornoch might be the two best specimens we have. 

[Tom_Doak]

What great posts.  What I was trying to get at is the differentiation between “near the sea” and “seaside.”  TOC and Muirfield and Lytham and Birkdale and are clearly links courses,  but not seaside links.  North Berwick and Dornoch might be the two best specimens we have.

I still think this is needless hair-splitting.  Places like North Berwick and Dornoch already get mega bonus points from raters because of all the ocean views.  They surely don't need an extra category of their own.  And insisting that they are more special than The Old Course, Muirfield and Lytham because they have more ocean views is missing the whole point of golf, which is the actual golf, rather than the views.

[Jon Wiggett]

What great posts.  What I was trying to get at is the differentiation between “near the sea” and “seaside.”  TOC and Muirfield and Lytham and Birkdale and are clearly links courses,  but not seaside links.  North Berwick and Dornoch might be the two best specimens we have.

James,



Dornoch gets no nearer the sea than TOC so I am perplexed as to your definition. It seems to me this is more of a pissing contest over which course has the most holes with sea views.


What makes a course good or not is the golf not the setting otherwise the bench on Flamborough Head would trump Dornoch hands down  On the point you make I would suggest that Brora is comfortably the equal of Dornoch in the point of views and setting and for me offers a purer links experience from a playing point of view.

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