[Tom_Doak]

Everybody has options.  Do you hit driver despite the troubles it might cause, or do you hit 7-iron off the tee to stay in the fairway (an option no one takes)?  Do you play a course that's confining like a straitjacket, or skip the invitation altogether? 


Attractive options are what matter.

[James Brown]

I think the scariest fairway to hit in the whole world with the wind in your face is #1 at TOC and it’s the widest fairway in the world. 


My reaction to the original video was complete concurrence with the author.  It doesn’t matter what angle you come into the green under MOST circumstances.  However, the pin locations dictate this dynamic.  When pins are tucked or close to strong features it matters a great deal.


Is suspect if someone could find a similar shot placement graphic from TOC hole 17 we would see a more compelling result.

In this situation the strategy would be to aim at the center of the green and hope for a 2 putt par. Tucked pins like this are not birdie opportunities (neither is 17 at TOC). Scott’s strategy for approaches is to aim far away from penalty hazards, make pars and move on. Get your birdies on the par5’s and hope to par all the 3s and 4s.

I would venture than TOC #17 places a pretty high premium on tee shot execution.  A good tee shot down the right side definitely leads to a better score on average, especially if the pin is back on the green. 

[Luke Sutton]

Everybody has options.  Do you hit driver despite the troubles it might cause, or do you hit 7-iron off the tee to stay in the fairway (an option no one takes)?  Do you play a course that's confining like a straitjacket, or skip the invitation altogether? 


Attractive options are what matter.

This is a great reply! It’s not 100% width that makes you choose your “options”.


It’s hard to demonstrate vague course management concepts on the greatest holes in the world. When I last played TOC I bombed one down the right and had 140 out, my caddie pretty much made me lay up short right and try and get up and down for par. Sound strategy and a great option on that hole. The Decade strategy is really meant to help junior golfers learn to play much smarter golf to become college/pro caliber. It doesn’t make Shinnecock is any less fun to play, it just helps the kids make decisions I’ve tried to learn over 25 years playing the game

[Thomas Dai]

Angles and options and width are interlinked.
If the middle of the fairway is the best place to be hitting into the green then it could be argued there is something wrong with the design of the green complex and putting surface?
atb

[Sean_A]

Hi

Angles and options and width are interlinked.
If the middle of the fairway is the best place to be hitting into the green then it could be argued there is something wrong with the design of the green complex and putting surface?
atb

Perhaps, but if a fairway is 30 yards wide it's difficult to argue that players should be choosing sides unless it is to avoid the worst trouble, but that has nothing to do with how a green sets up.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.
And then there’s the temptation aspect. How close are you tempted to go to the rough/trouble/hazard in order to get the best line in for your next shot?

Atb

[Sean_A]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.
And then there’s the temptation aspect. How close are you tempted to go to the rough/trouble/hazard in order to get the best line in for your next shot?

Atb

Okay, so you are playing a 30 yard fairway and you choose to cut your safe buffer by 15 yards by aiming for one side or the other?

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.

It doesn’t really. Not for a PGA Tour player.

[Thomas Dai]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.

It doesn’t really. Not for a PGA Tour player.

I’m afraid I’m not convinced.
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.

It doesn’t really. Not for a PGA Tour player.

I’m afraid I’m not convinced.
Atb

Scoring to left and right pins is virtually identical to the hundredths of a shot from the left and right fairway. And the left or right rough.

[Peter Pallotta]

I watched Brandt Snedeker shoot 60 today at the Canadian Open (on Colt's Hamilton course) and it sure seems that, when it comes to the Tour, 'scoring' is all about 'putting'. He made putts from everywhere, for birdies and eagle and to save pars coming down the stretch. (I believe he was something like +5 in SGP).
It seems the only 'option' tour pros have to worry about is the choice between a blade putter, an anser or a mallet.
P

[Michael Felton]

I’m not sure. A 30 yd different in position, at the same length, can make a huge difference in terms of the angle into the green let alone the pin.

It doesn’t really. Not for a PGA Tour player.

I’m afraid I’m not convinced.
Atb

Scoring to left and right pins is virtually identical to the hundredths of a shot from the left and right fairway. And the left or right rough.

That’s averaged over a vast number of shots to a vast number of different left and right pins. I’m quite certain that with the right ground conditions you could make a hole really tough to get at from the wrong angle but playable from the right spot. One of Tiger’s best attributes in the early 00s was his ability to hit high soft landing iron shots that would stop while no one else could do it so well.


Peter - it is true that the guys on tour who shoot the best score on a given day typically have the highest strokes gained putting, but that isn’t sustainable. Snedeker may have been +5 SGP today, but he can’t do that every day.


The guys who are up there week in and week out are the guys with the best long game. Much easier to have a freak week on the greens than a freak week off the tee or with approach shots. No one accidentally hits it 330 in the fairway, but people accidentally make 30 foot putts every day.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I watched Brandt Snedeker shoot 60 today at the Canadian Open (on Colt's Hamilton course) and it sure seems that, when it comes to the Tour, 'scoring' is all about 'putting'. He made putts from everywhere, for birdies and eagle and to save pars coming down the stretch. (I believe he was something like +5 in SGP).

Still gotta hit it close, but yeah, putting is the most highly variable things, so it's more likely to "go off" on any given day. Can go the other way too.

That’s averaged over a vast number of shots to a vast number of different left and right pins. I’m quite certain that with the right ground conditions you could make a hole really tough to get at from the wrong angle but playable from the right spot. One of Tiger’s best attributes in the early 00s was his ability to hit high soft landing iron shots that would stop while no one else could do it so well.

I don't see anyone claiming it to always be the case. The truth is the majority of the time that those 30 yards don't matter.

The 15th hole at Augusta? Width and angles matter there if you're laying up for your third.

[Thomas Dai]

Reflecting on this matter it's sad to note how the importance of course management seems to have declined within the game.
Bobby Jones once said "Golf is a game that is played on a five inch course - the distance between your ears". I wonder if he'd say it again now?
atb

[Sean_A]

Reflecting on this matter it's sad to note how the importance of course management seems to have declined within the game.
Bobby Jones once said "Golf is a game that is played on a five inch course - the distance between your ears". I wonder if he'd say it again now?
atb

A 30 yard wide fairway doesn't leave much room for course management...even for the pros...let alone handicap players. Bobby Jones was used to 45+yards of fairway...when there was space to use your "5 inches".


Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:


The difference between a 30-yard fairway and a 45-yard one is negligible, if the rough is mowed short enough that it doesn't cost you half a stroke.  That's why Mr. Koepka says "fairways are overrated". 

[Jeff Schley]

For pros the answer IMO is different.  However for amateur golf being in the fairway with any sort of medium length is a significant penalty.

[Tom_Doak]

For pros the answer IMO is different.  However for amateur golf being in the fairway with any sort of medium length is a significant penalty.

Mr. Dye used to tell me that the average golfer was BETTER OFF in short rough than in a tight fairway, and I don't think that's far from the truth. 

[Thomas Dai]

Reminds me of Seve’s (hopefully) tongue in cheek comment - “I’d like to see the fairways more narrow. Then everyone would have to play from the rough, not just me.”!
Atb

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The difference between a 30-yard fairway and a 45-yard one is negligible, if the rough is mowed short enough that it doesn't cost you half a stroke.  That's why Mr. Koepka says "fairways are overrated".

Stars don’t bear that out. It may be a good mindset for Brooks, though.

[Thomas Dai]

Mr. Dye used to tell me that the average golfer was BETTER OFF in short rough than in a tight fairway, and I don't think that's far from the truth.

A very perceptive comment imo.
One I suggest should be read a few times and then mulled-over from several perspectives.
atb

[Sean_A]

Sean:


The difference between a 30-yard fairway and a 45-yard one is negligible, if the rough is mowed short enough that it doesn't cost you half a stroke.  That's why Mr. Koepka says "fairways are overrated".

Tom

I agree. Hell, you could have no fairway as such, just 60 yards of very light rough.

A few reasons other than strategy why I prefer wider fairways:

1. The natural tendency of green keeping is to properly maintain to short grass areas. Eventually corridor width is reduced or at least effective corridor width is reduced. This is lost corridor width which designers thought appropriate.

2. Rough after 30 (or whatever yards the design intent was) yards often masks cool ground features on the wings. I have seen this countless times. Just take a look at Walton Heath New & Minch Old as examples.

3. When money becomes an issue the rough is often no longer cut at a very playable height.

I would much rather see 45+ yard fairways not only for the strategy involved but the aesthetics as well. It's fine to keep fairway heights a bit higher to make this more affordable. But I don't think its a great idea to depend on a model of 30+30 unless the design is specifically for that type of setup and everybody knows this is the case. Though I bet pennies to pounds the wider fairway courses will more often than not be better than the narrow fairway courses. People forget that when width allows for playability it also gives designers more opportunity to make a course more varied.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


Your last post on aesthetics is the bit I agree with most.


If I talk solely about links courses for a moment, I absolutely abhor large areas of semi-rough. Other than a width or two at the wings, I think semi-rough looks very out of place. Like you, I prefer wider fairway cuts to accentuate the ground undulations and contour.


Important to note that the most important rough management on a links is the first 10 yards of primary rough: long fine grasses and less broadleaves.


So all other things being equal, fairway widths of 40-45 yards, 3 yards semi on each side and 10 yards maintained primary. Gives you about 70 yards playable width.

[Thomas Dai]

.....Hell, you could have no fairway as such, just 60 yards of very light rough.

Once upon a time I seem to recall we regularly did, particularly parkland type golf.
And were the lies easier for lessor players to get the ball airborne from? And did elite players incur 'fliers'? And did maintenance and upkeep cost less? And were bunkers 'inside' the fairway lines? And were the tree-lines spaced wider? Etc, etc.
atb

[Kalen Braley]

For pros the answer IMO is different.  However for amateur golf being in the fairway with any sort of medium length is a significant penalty.

Mr. Dye used to tell me that the average golfer was BETTER OFF in short rough than in a tight fairway, and I don't think that's far from the truth.

Having a hard time seeing this one...anytime i take a full shot with any club I always want a nice clean lie, with the exception of chips/pitches around the green.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()