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Peter Pallotta

Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« on: May 31, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »
One very early last season, the other mid way through.
The first a university professor in his early 50s who, though athletic, doesn't play any other sport. The other a part time musician & factory worker in his early 40s who was once a ranked kick-boxer.
Neither had ever played golf before, both have become absolutely obsessed with the game and fallen in love with it -- and both are improving remarkably quickly. (They spent 3 days a week at the local golf dome all winter long. I started them both with two extra sets I had of older Hogan irons and Taylormade woods.)
As close to true newbies as you can get, with no previous knowledge of or interest in gca.
Here's what I noted by the end of last season:
1. They like to see the ball bounce and bound along the fairway after it lands, and want to go back to the courses that provide that (and not to ones that don't) -- and when a faded or hooked drive keeps rolling into the rough they blame themselves, ie their (current) ball striking.
2. While they don't mind rough (they call it 'long grass', as if someone just forgot to cut it) bordering the fairways, they hate 'long grass' close to and around the greens.
3. They really like golf holes that 'curve', ie gentle doglegs, and enjoy them bending in both directions -- to the right they get excited because they can 'see' the shot coming off, to the left they get focused because they want to try to draw the ball.
4. They don't like Par 3s, because they 'don't get a 2nd chance', ie a bad mis-hit off the tee immediately brings bogey into play (whereas on Par 4s they feel they have a chance to recover and still be putting for birdie if they can make a great 2nd shot).
5. I've never heard either of them even once mention fairway width or lack of it, or note/complain about tree lined courses (or courses without/with few trees): they simply don't seem to notice these things or to think about the game/courses in those terms.
6. Both can really hit the ball hard and long, not just for beginners but compared to most average golfer their ages; and yet, they both shy away from playing the blues (eg 6400-6500 yards) and always want to play the whites, ie 6100 yards.
6. They don't like uphill approach shots, especially long ones and ones that are very uphill.
7. They don't mind fairway bunkers at all (and don't complain about the very mixed results they achieve hitting out of them) but they do mind greenside bunkers a lot, and complain constantly about all manner of problems with them, real of imagined.
8. They are in love with the high flop-shot type recovery (and play those shots quite well, and better than I do - me who doesn't 'see' that shot and rarely play it) but marvel that I choose low running chips and pitches using everything from a 6 iron to a hooded sand wedge.
9. They have taken to really disliking flattish greens, which they call 'greens that don't break'...and every time they miss a putt they moan/remind themselves that "these greens don't break!!"
As I say, this is probably OT, but I thought I'd share my experience with two brand new but totally committed golfers re gca.


« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 12:19:33 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Peter Flory

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Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 12:45:09 PM »
I know many architects do it, but this is definitely a reminder of how important it is to look at golf from the perspective of various customers.

When I was younger, all of my golf trips tended to be with scratch players and were filled with team matches, games, etc.  In the last 5 years or so, I have taken a lot of golf trips with older family members, their friends, and some really high handicap players.  It was definitely eye opening for me to watch people who shoot 100 on a good day have to navigate their way around Streamsong, Bandon, and courses in Scotland.  Some get really frustrated at their struggles and some don't mind the punishment and just give their ball a throw when needed. 

I will strongly agree with you that no matter where they fall in the range, they all enjoy it when the ball bounces and runs off the tee.


Just think what it was like for CBM trying to introduce the game.  With his knowledge of the great courses overseas, it must have been comical at times for him to get feedback from players swinging hickory sticks for the first time.  It's amazing that it took off.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 12:47:24 PM by Peter Flory »

Joe Zucker

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Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 01:03:01 PM »
I think this is a great topic and really not that far OT.  So many of our threads focus on tour players and the effect they have on the game, when in reality there are 1000x more beginners than pros in any given year.  Their impression of the game is probably more valuable to the health of golf as any tour pro. 


I'm now 30 and have finally reached the age where all my athletic friends from childhood are turning to golf.  Many of them have the same sentiments as you, but the one that stands out to me are bunkers.  Green side bunkers are pure death to many beginners.  Mostly because they don't have the technique to use the bounce of the club, but it's really frustrating to hit two reasonable shots and then 3 more just to get it out of the bunker.  This is particularly hard for women getting into the game.  As friends have tried to bring their wives/girlfriends to the course, I've seen a few get discouraged by having no hope from a green side trap.


Is there much of a place for greenside bunkers in the modern game?  Good players love traps and are so good from them, while high handicappers and beginners are hopeless in them.  Seems like it is an example of a penalty that does not punish players proportionately. 

Kalen Braley

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Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2019, 01:09:30 PM »
Peter,

Terrific thread buddy, this is the good stuff, and quite frankly the perspectives we should always be more interested in.

 Over the years my non GCA interested buddies have given me tons of insights I would have never seen, probably because i was over-thinking it.  And while many of thier viewpoints are frustrating in that they often parrot what they see on TV, nonethless they have fully bought into it, and I don't think it can be dismissed...

Joe,

As one whose spent many of my playing years as a high capper, I've always found fairway bunkers to be far more difficult.  If for no other reason given the sheer distance to the hole 150 yards away vs 10-15.  Yes I've had a few rare bad green side bunker experiences, (two of my worst happened at the same KP event, Pajaro Valley and Pasatiempo 18)  ;D ;D .  But in general i don't mind most green side bunker recovery shots.

jeffwarne

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Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2019, 01:28:49 PM »
Great thread


Really curious if you took them to a course with greens that tilt or slope 3-5 degrees in spots(but not multi tier buried elephant greens), but stimp around 8


vs flattish greens that run at 13


had a blast yesterday playing a course where the greens ran around 7 yet had MULTIPLE scary putts with 6-8 feet of break
....and no bunkers



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2019, 01:44:56 PM »
One other thing to consider is that people often don't know that they like something until they experience it.  For the example on the width/ tree lined fairway point- beginners may not question it.  It looks like golf on TV and they may just accept that it is part of the game.  They don't get stuck there like they might in a green side trap. 


But if you took that same golfer to a course without them, they might enjoy it even more. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 02:44:05 PM »
Maybe these guys enjoy being rewarded for good shots. That is not uncommon amongst us who try to get better. You work, you get rewarded.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 03:00:15 PM »
I'm going to teach my grandson to look for options before he hits the ball and not to expect them after.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2019, 05:21:50 AM »
Peter,


How do your friends feel about forced carries over water? I have found that many of my friends like them even if they are not good players because they enjoy the thrill of pulling off the shot as unlikely as they may be to do so.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2019, 08:37:20 AM »
Peter,


How do your friends feel about forced carries over water? I have found that many of my friends like them even if they are not good players because they enjoy the thrill of pulling off the shot as unlikely as they may be to do so.



I was going to ask the same question.  Many, many architects and developers feel that golfers are attracted to water hazards; but there are also lots of players who hate losing a ball.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2019, 08:44:04 AM »

7. They don't mind fairway bunkers at all (and don't complain about the very mixed results they achieve hitting out of them) but they do mind greenside bunkers a lot, and complain constantly about all manner of problems with them, real of imagined.
 
8. They are in love with the high flop-shot type recovery (and play those shots quite well, and better than I do - me who doesn't 'see' that shot and rarely play it) but marvel that I choose low running chips and pitches using everything from a 6 iron to a hooded sand wedge.


Regarding #7, the difference is that in a fairway bunker you take a full swing and try to pick the ball clean, whereas at the greenside you have to have a different technique and it can be very frustrating, as others have noted.  I'd guess if you took them to Scotland right now they would HATE fairway pot bunkers.


Regarding #8, people will stick with the normal, high shot unless they are regularly exposed to bouncy courses where it doesn't work well.


I didn't bother commenting on #9 because I have plenty of experience that most golfers don't mind contoured greens as much as other architects think they do.  It's the really good golfers that complain about green contours, and they're the ones I'm trying to challenge, so it seems to be working out as planned.

Bill Charles

Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2019, 09:08:22 AM »
Such a powerful thread. It’s amazing to see new golfers naturally gravitate towards fun factor. It also shows we can gain strength in numbers by bringing in new golfers  ;D

Peter Pallotta

Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 10:28:49 AM »
Thanks, gents. Many good points/questions. Just briefly for now:
Modest 60s style greens that (for drainage) tilt from back to front and from left to right with a lot of grain and running at 8 are difficult to putt: the difference in speed (and line) between a downhill & with the tilt putt and an uphill & against the tilt putt is very significant & dramatic. I think my friends are experiencing this: ie the 'monotony' of one flattish green after another and the desire to be able too 'see' and try to putt more contoured & interesting greens, coupled with the (unrecognized) challenge currently involved and the (all too obvious) results -- putts that finish 8 ft short or 10 ft long, and either miss way on the high side or way on the low side (hence their refrain that 'these greens don't break', I think).


Peter Pallotta

Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 06:37:21 PM »
Added a new course this weekend to our 'rota -- one with more architectural interest and contoured greens.
It was fun for me to hear my two new golfers talk the talk, eg
(at the tee):
'No, no, don't you see? This hole calls for a *draw*, otherwise you're gonna run through the fairway into the tall grass'.
'Well what do you want me to do, Mr Big Shot? I dont know *how* to hit a draw!'
'Then play it safe, don't be stupid. Take your three wood or hybrid and hit it over there to the right, there's lots of room short'.
'Yeah -- but then I got over 200 yards left, and I want to try to par this hole'.
'Well then learn to hit a draw - what do you want from me?'
(pause)
'F--k you. I'm hitting driver!'

(at the green, short sided, and after deciding not to go over the bunker or to aim at the pin, and after the green contours helped the ball finish close)
'Did you see that?! Did you see that?!'
'Great shot'
'Great shot no f--king kidding. That's *exactly* what I wanted to do, it came out just like I planned it!'
'Great shot'.
'Yeah great shot! Did you see: I aimed for that slope cause I knew the ball was gonna come back down and turn to the right! Did you see that?!'
'Yeah that was a great shot'.
'Oh, oh my god. That was *deeply* satisfying. Three feet away. Man I love this hole. That was my first ever bank shot -- I used the bank!'
'Yeah, well you still have to make the putt'
(pause)
'F--k you'.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 06:39:43 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Sort of OT - I introduced two friends to golf
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 07:59:32 PM »
Peter, send this link to your buddies, I swear it will help them with greenside bunkers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYrroibqQws




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