Are there any good sharp dogleg holes where the angle of turn exceeds 60*?

[Thomas Dai]

Are there any good sharp dogleg holes where the angle of turn exceeds 60 degrees?
And good for many not just the few.

Examples please. Some explanation as to why you reckon they’re good would also be nice.

Atb

[Alex Miller]

Are there any good sharp dogleg holes where the angle of turn exceeds 60 degrees?
And good for many not just the few.

Examples please. Some explanation as to why you reckon they’re good would also be nice.

Atb

Hole 6 LACC comes to mind. It's a ~80 degree dogleg and still presents an interesting risk/reward decision because of how well defended the green is. I'll try to find pictures to add, but it's a fantastic hole for players of all skill levels.

[Michael Felton]

Are there any good sharp dogleg holes where the angle of turn exceeds 60 degrees?
And good for many not just the few.

Examples please. Some explanation as to why you reckon they’re good would also be nice.

Atb

How are you defining dogleg? Does 12 at Pine Valley count? That's  a good hole for the many. Yet still difficult. Alternatively I'd posit number 1 and number 6 there. 6 is probably the better example for you. 6 is a fantastic hole where from the tee, you can pick how much to bite off of the bunker. The more you bite off, the shorter your approach shot will be. Better not get it wrong though. Miss right and you can very easily make double or worse (believe me I know).

[Thomas Dai]

Micheal,
For this discussion I’ve chosen a 60 degree angle and sharp, not arcing
Arb

[Jon McSweeny]

Seems like a sharp dogleg is great for a big risk-reward decision.

Number 3 at Pebble has to be around this 60 degree figure (might be a tick under.) In the last Open, Dustin Johnson tried to make up for a bad 2nd hole by cutting the corner in the final round, and that decision was effectively the end of his tournament.

[Bob Montle]

Would #16 at Harbour Town be an example?   It seemed to play at a steep dogleg.   
The holes with an acute dogleg which I consider to be poor golf holes are the ones where you have to carry 'x' yards in order to see the green.

And isn't #13 at Augusta over 60 degrees?

[Nick Ribeiro]

Bethpage Black #1

[Edward Glidewell]

The Dunes Club (Myrtle Beach) has a dogleg that's roughly 90 degrees, and the course is usually rated pretty highly. It's around a lake so you can see the green from the tee. I've never played it so I don't have an opinion as to whether it's a good hole.

[Jeff Schley]

#12 at Cape Cod National I liked as you had to pull the right club off the tee with this short par 4 severe dogleg left.

[Tommy Williamsen]

The fifth hole Musgrove Mill is a wonderfully fun hole. It measures 414/389/371. The tee box is some thirty feet above the fairway and is a short carry of some marsh that is to the right side of the fairway. The fairway is miles wide but if you hit it to the left side of the fairway you are left with only about 125 yards to the elevated green with sandy waste area short and right. Hit it to the right side of the fairway and you'll about 165 yards in. The green is perched up a bit and does not allow a bounded ball access to  the sloping green. From the back tee the player will need to hit the ball about 225 to get around the corner.


This was the favorite hole of a dear friend. He told everyone at the club that when he died he wanted his ashes fired from a cannon atop the back tee. He died in a tragic car accident. We said a little prayer and fired him away. Unfortunately, it was against the wind. We all left with a bit of Doug in our hair.

[Tim Martin]

4 and 10 at True Blue.

[Tom_Doak]

The "left angle" hole, #10 at West Sussex, is a 90-degree dogleg left. 


I'm not sure if that was Bernard Darwin's play on the geometric "right angle," or someone else's.


The one interesting point of a really sharp dogleg [if you can't carry the corner] is that it rewards a straight shot up one side with a shorter approach, instead of who is longer off the tee, like 98% of other holes do.

[Tim Martin]

The sharpest I have seen is at Marion Golf Club in Massachusetts. George Thomas was pretty bold with his first course which is a 9 holer. It’s the second or third hole.

[David_Elvins]

13 at Augusta and 6 at Royal Melbourne West would be two high profile examples.

[David Restrepo]

Agreed with Royal Melbourne 6W. Also 11W, 9E, and 14E could contend.

[Garland Bayley]

From the satellite view, it appears that the 2nd at Perranporth qualifies.

[Brad Payne]

#1 at Lion Muni in Austin my be 100* angle. Not sure it’s ‘good’, so much as interesting and controversial.

[Ira Fishman]

Ross built back to back ones at Hope Valley—Numbers 16 and 17. For the good player, they probably present a fair challenge because they reward a long draw. Both have great green complexes that suit the respective lengths of the holes. The long 16th has no bunkers while the shorter 17th plays uphill with a bunker on left corner of green. For the rest of us mortals, they make Par a very tough score and on 16 often have to hit a play out shot even if on the fairway but short of the corner.  Good holes or bad?


Ira

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the examples.
Without going into the specifics of each holes mentioned, are they all still 'good' holes?
They may have been good holes once, but with modern technology has there design and playing intent now either partially or totally disappeared?
It seems like once-upon-a-time there was a real skill to laying up on a dogleg and that this element of the game has perhaps declined in the modern era. Would this be a fair comment?
atb

[Robin_Hiseman]

I've designed a handful at JCB. I'll leave it to others to decide if they're any good!


I took inspiration from the 6th on the West Course at Royal Melbourne for one of them (7th). This struck me as close to the ideal template for a sharply doglegging hole where the crook is not defined by trees.

[Matt MacIver]

I think some of them are good holes, and then #13 at ANGC is great.  But for the good ones, mostly its a question, as always, of execution without the strategic component, unless carrying the dogleg or playing away from it provides a better angle for the (or that day’s) pin. 


For example, I get excited standing on the 5th tee box at Musgrove since it’s so elevated and a great view.  But the goal is to hit it straight and not through the fairway, judging the wind.  Then the goal is to hit the green.  I (think) if the pros played there the exact middle of the fairway would be worn out. 

[Jason Topp]

I like sharp doglegs where the turn is after the tee shot because of the reward it can provide to accuracy off the tee.   We have a long par 4 at Windsong where I can save 30 yards by placing my tee shot on the right side rather than bailing out to the left. When the hole is into the wind, it is the only way I can get to the green in 2 shots. 

I have also seen this work on par 5s.  There are two such holes at Tobacco Road (although they bend rather than sharply dogleg).  The 18th at the Harvester used to play this way as well.  I have not played it since they changed the hole but I think this aspect of the hole still exists. 

[Michael Felton]

I'm going to also suggest that 6 on Bethpage Red is a really good hole. It's about a 90 degree dogleg. not that it couldn't be made better with some judicious tree removal, but I really like it.

[JESII]

There's a hole on the third nine at Huntingdon Valley that I really like but understand the opposition to it...


As built and upon initial restoration, it was the 2nd hole but due to bringing the starting position more oriented to the other two nines, it's now the 6th hole.


Pretty much 100% of my belief that it's a good hole is that the approach shot is just about the best approach shot I've ever played. Someone could post an overhead possibly, but the shot is generally about 200-210 yards uphill a bit to a large flowing green from short right to back left with plenty of short grass on the high side and two small bunkers and short rough on the low side.


The negative is that as built, you can really only hit a 210 - 220 tee shot to find that optimal position off the tee. Forced layups are never well received but the reward on this one makes up for it if you ask me...

[Kyle Harris]

There's a hole on the third nine at Huntingdon Valley that I really like but understand the opposition to it...


As built and upon initial restoration, it was the 2nd hole but due to bringing the starting position more oriented to the other two nines, it's now the 6th hole.


Pretty much 100% of my belief that it's a good hole is that the approach shot is just about the best approach shot I've ever played. Someone could post an overhead possibly, but the shot is generally about 200-210 yards uphill a bit to a large flowing green from short right to back left with plenty of short grass on the high side and two small bunkers and short rough on the low side.


The negative is that as built, you can really only hit a 210 - 220 tee shot to find that optimal position off the tee. Forced layups are never well received but the reward on this one makes up for it if you ask me...

You beat me to this, though I LOATHE the new tees.

Alex Findlay was particularly adept at using a sharp dogleg to create interesting golf - perhaps because he used them where the land dictated. The 11th at Reading Country Club with it's Alps approach may be the most noteworthy.

And now here is a candidate for me that will rankle more than a few of the Philadelphia contingent (Hello Mike Cirba):

The ninth at Philmont Country Club's North Course.