Idea for Two Holes (1, 15) at Bethpage Black

[Ben Hollerbach]

I could see a potential to put a tee box between the tee and green on Red 4, where you would be driving over the first green on the Red course, but I'd imagine you'd have to cut down some trees and move some bunkers to make that work. I was hoping to improve the hole with as little change to the property as possible, but playing from over this way would eliminate the crossover and the tee box build for this purpose could just become a new front tee box for the 4th.

[Mark Fedeli]

For 18, I'd like to see them create a tournament specific tee over near the 16th green. This would help to bring a bit of dogleg into the tee shot forcing the players to navigate the bunkers as they either try to play over the lefthand set or short of the righthand set. The new angle would also stretch the hole by ~50 yards.

Of course there would be some logistics issues when it comes to the 17th and 18th crossing and how you navigate the spectators in this area. And people would complain that they wouldn't get the chance to play the tee during normal play, but I'm ok with that.

What if you reversed this idea and had the tee in the top left corner of your picture, near that par three green?

You'd have to take down a lot of trees, and you also wouldn't actually be gaining much added distance. Same with teeing off behind #1 Red. You might actually be losing some since you can only go back about 10 yards behind that green before it falls off down a hill.


Ben, yours is a much better idea than using the 18th green on Red hybrid, which would also create major logistical issues with tree removal and room for grandstands. Very creative, thank you for doing the rendering. I think the main issue, other than the loss of some of the most valuable grandstands, would just be the flow. Would players on 18 tee have to wait for players on 17 to play? That could take a while. And vice versa, it's possible players on 17 tee had already been waiting quite a while to hit.


I believe I read that the original plan during the renovation was to move the 18th green back up the hill, but the idea had to be sacrificed due to budget issues. Honestly, going back another 30 yards probably wouldn't make that much difference for the pros anyway.


I've always wished they would at least cut the grass at fairway height all the way up to the front of the green and steepen the front edge into more of a false front. I wouldn't even be angry watching my ball tumble 70+ yards all the way back down that hill.

[Mark Fedeli]

I could see a potential to put a tee box between the tee and green on Red 4, where you would be driving over the first green on the Red course, but I'd imagine you'd have to cut down some trees and move some bunkers to make that work. I was hoping to improve the hole with as little change to the property as possible, but playing from over this way would eliminate the crossover and the tee box build for this purpose could just become a new front tee box for the 4th.

You can't go back that far on that line. A few yards beyond the cart path the land dips down steeply toward the woods. The cart path is probably right where you'd have to tee off from, and at that point, you likely have a shorter hole than you began with. Tougher drive though, for sure.

[Nick Ribeiro]

This is so awesome... Just doze the entire property and start over?

[Kalen Braley]

Yes Nick, that is precisely what we're suggesting !!

Move one tee box and reconfigure a few bunkers = blow it all up and start over! 

[Nick Ribeiro]

Yes Nick, that is precisely what we're suggesting !!

Move one tee box and reconfigure a few bunkers = blow it all up and start over! 

Bastardize away... Maybe move the red course? On top of the old course after you bring the old course to long island?

[Kalen Braley]

Yes Nick, that is precisely what we're suggesting !!

Move one tee box and reconfigure a few bunkers = blow it all up and start over! 

Bastardize away... Maybe move the red course? On top of the old course after you bring the old course to long island?

[Ben Hollerbach]

I could see a potential to put a tee box between the tee and green on Red 4, where you would be driving over the first green on the Red course, but I'd imagine you'd have to cut down some trees and move some bunkers to make that work. I was hoping to improve the hole with as little change to the property as possible, but playing from over this way would eliminate the crossover and the tee box build for this purpose could just become a new front tee box for the 4th.

You can't go back that far on that line. A few yards beyond the cart path the land dips down steeply toward the woods. The cart path is probably right where you'd have to tee off from, and at that point, you likely have a shorter hole than you began with. Tougher drive though, for sure.

It appeared to me that the land close to the diagonal cart path that crosses the 4th hole would be near the level of the green on the 1st hole. I presume it would be possible to slightly build up a tee location there that would be at the same height as the other tee boxes on 4 and be playable as a tee box down to the 18th fairway on Black.


Although I don't feel it would be the best solution for the hole, playing from this location would add approximately 40 yards to the drive on the hole.


Any solution to the problem that is the 18th would have to be either temporary for the championship only, fit into the land that is available around/beyond the current 18th. or blend into the property in a non-intrusive way.

[Mark Fedeli]

Ben, you really couldn't put a tee anywhere between the two cart paths where your red dot is. It dips down pretty severely there, and building that land back up would ruin the look of the exceptional Redan-ish par 3 that is Red #4. Where that cart is just behind your dot is heading downhill quite steeply. However, if they were cool with cutting down trees, you could move your red dot further up toward the tee for Red #4 (up and to the right in your photo) and find some flatter ground there. But at that point, it might be getting rather ridiculous.

[Tom_Doak]

I could see a potential to put a tee box between the tee and green on Red 4, where you would be driving over the first green on the Red course, but I'd imagine you'd have to cut down some trees and move some bunkers to make that work. I was hoping to improve the hole with as little change to the property as possible, but playing from over this way would eliminate the crossover and the tee box build for this purpose could just become a new front tee box for the 4th.

So you want players to walk 200 yards from 17 green to 18 tee?

[Tom_Doak]

In general, I don't see any need to redesign any holes at Bethpage Black.  I'd maybe take out some of the bunkers that aren't original.  But mostly I'd just mow it differently.


The problem with putting in a new bunker on #1 is that it won't affect the young & strong players at all.  They'd rather be in sand than in the rough, unless it's going to leave them a 70-yard bunker shot . . . most of them would play away from that.


It would have helped for the PGA if the fairway on #1 wasn't a rice paddy.  I had never thought much about players taking that short-cut, because the fairway is only 25 yards deep on that angle, and in normal golf conditions even the best drive would take one bounce and roll out into the deep rough on the far left side, which is not a great angle for left-hand hole locations.  But I'm sure Brooks K. would happily drop his tee ball in the left rough four days in a row if it left him 60-80 yards to the flag every time.

[Mark Fedeli]

Tom, if they tasked you with making 18 more challenging, do you have any sense of what you might suggest? I’m fascinated by their decision last year to remove the pinch, make the fairway more uniformly straight, and just add more bunkers down the right side. Despite all their talk about how it added strategy and made the hole more difficult, I can’t imagine that specific change made much difference at all in the PGA compared to years past.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Mike Davis followed my group in the 2001 NY State Open, and we got to converse with him occasionally. The USGA had a spotter on 9 and 12 to see where drives ended up.  The new further back tee on 12, happened because he saw Mike Meehan bomb it over the left trees, while we were putting out on 11.  While we played the 12th, he was spray painting a new tee.  As for the 18th, I asked him about playing from left of 17 to the 18th of Red.  His response was that it was very important for the public to be able to play the same course as the US Open.

[Bill Charles]

Mike Davis followed my group in the 2001 NY State Open, and we got to converse with him occasionally. The USGA had a spotter on 9 and 12 to see where drives ended up.  The new further back tee on 12, happened because he saw Mike Meehan bomb it over the left trees, while we were putting out on 11.  While we played the 12th, he was spray painting a new tee.  As for the 18th, I asked him about playing from left of 17 to the 18th of Red.  His response was that it was very important for the public to be able to play the same course as the US Open.

Has Mike Davis done anything good for golf? No...

[Nick Ribeiro]

I think you guys can really help Tom Doak out. He's speaking positively about Crooked Stick and everything you seem to hate about Bethpage exists there also. Maybe you should go over to that thread and help Tom get back on track? Explain to him Crooked stick can only be good if they widen fairways, put in some half par holes, and maybe buy some houses around the course so they can add tee boxes since they don't have a Red course to intrude on?

[Bill Charles]

I think you guys can really help Tom Doak out. He's speaking positively about Crooked Stick and everything you seem to hate about Bethpage exists there also. Maybe you should go over to that thread and help Tom get back on track? Explain to him Crooked stick can only be good if they widen fairways, put in some half par holes, and maybe buy some houses around the course so they can add tee boxes since they don't have a Red course to intrude on?

I said it there and I’ll say it here, Crooked Stick is not a good golf course. Any golf course that doesn’t give options off the tee or at least some width the fairways is not for all players therefor it can not be considered great but can be considered bad.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

What does Crooked Stick have to do with Bethpage Black? Furthermore,have
[size=78%]you played Cooked Stick?  I found it to have plenty of options.[/size]
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[/size][size=78%]As for the 1st and 15th.  Both fairways used to be cut further out to the outside of the dogleg on 1 and to the right on 15 up until 1999 when they began narrowing the fairways.[/size]
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[/size][size=78%]Another idea that floated around on the 18th years ago,but was not acted upon, was moving the fairway over 10 yards towards the 1st hole. Not sure why this never came about since Rees did reconfigure the bunkers on 18[/size]
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[Tim_Weiman]

Erik,


I have only played Bethpage Black on one occasion, but I don’t think either #1 or #15 need any changes.


As for #18, I don’t know what to do. All those bunkers look awful, IMO.

[Bill Charles]

Erik,


I have only played Bethpage Black on one occasion, but I don’t think either #1 or #15 need any changes.


As for #18, I don’t know what to do. All those bunkers look awful, IMO.

Blow the course up! Nuke it!

[Rob Marshall]

Amazing..........i would think a guy who is trying to destroy a site would just be kicked out.