Idea for Two Holes (1, 15) at Bethpage Black

[Erik J. Barzeski]

In discussing Bethpage Black with a friend of mine at The Memorial the past two days, we came up with two ideas for the 1st and 15th holes.

Neither of us are architects, and most of you here on GCA know a million times more than we do combined. So I'd like to post these two ideas, and please, feel free to tell me what's bad about them, what could be improved, and maybe, on the slim chance, what's possibly good about them. These are just the results of 10 minutes of BSing, and by hearing what y'all have to say we/I can perhaps learn a good bit.

1st Hole
We'd slightly widen the fairway out to the left, and add an angled cross bunker (or bunkers?) angling from short right to long left, ideally with a little fairway sticking out to the left of them, so that the cross bunker was maybe 2/3 or 3/4 of the width. In our opinions, the angled cross bunker would force a tougher decision - perhaps between carrying it with the driver (the longer carry would be the one left to avoid the trees, while the shorter carry brings trees into play), or laying up - but laying up with a 3W might put you in the bunker, so now you're choosing between a driver and laying back with maybe a 4I or a hybrid, making the approach shot even longer.

In our opinion this isn't a big change, but it does make the decisions over which club to take and where to aim more interesting.

15th Hole
We'd widen the fairway quite a bit to the right, making the fairway about 55 yards wide. About 15-20 yards from the left side, add a longer, narrow fairway bunker. At the green, remove the left bunker (or push it back a bit) and flatten the ground short left of the green and cut it to fairway height to create a "landing area" for shots played from the left side of the fairway.

Our opinion is that this would create a more strategic decision to be made, somewhat like the 6th at Carnoustie. Drive it left between the bunker and the rough and you have a better angle to the green with the fairway landing area short and relatively no bunkers. Take the safer drive out to the right where there's 30+ yards of fairway, and you'll have a longer approach shot that must carry the front right bunker(s).

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That's it. We'd love to hear what's good (maybe), bad (surely), or anything else about those two ideas. I'm not claiming at all that these ideas "fit" with Tillinghast/Burbeck have on the other 16 holes, but if the reason they don't "work" is because they don't "fit" then we gave no real consideration to that, and we're fine with that.

[jeffwarne]

Good ideas
1 has become a terrible hole-with silly trees on the corner to thwart an outdated hole
Just goofy as a starting hole at a major-yet it could be prtty good hole(and could be lengthened to allow play into the intended corridor)
15, Good hole and anything adding width to that hole is a plus
as far as allowing a runup, there are probably several holes I would start with first (9,10 or 11) but that(15) could be cool as well

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Good ideas
1 has become a terrible hole-with silly trees on the corner to thwart an outdated hole
Just goofy as a starting hole at a major-yet it could be prtty good hole(and could be lengthened to allow play into the intended corridor)
15, Good hole and anything adding width to that hole is a plus
as far as allowing a runup, there are probably several holes I would start with first (9,10 or 11) but that(15) could be cool as well

Oh I don’t think it could really “run up” very far, but at least a few yards of fairway would let a guy hitting hybrid or 5I in hit a well judged shot that hits that bit of fairway and hops twice while staying on the front of the green. I don’t envision with the hill people rolling it on even from 15 yards short.


Thank you for the feedback.

[Mark Fedeli]

: )


Interesting ideas for #15.


For #1, I'd probably go back to something closer to the proposal from the original cartographic map model, where the inside of the dogleg has bunkers. The current trees are out of place and don't deter the pros anyway. I'd also use that opportunity to improve #18 by using the bunkers to ask more questions off the tee. Here's a terrible sketch of the mowing lines (red) and bunkers (white):





and here's the originally proposed design (note the bunkers all down the right side of #1):





 

[Mark Fedeli]

Here's a better view of the model (note the stream running through the 15 and 16 fairways):





and another early plan:

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Is this kind of what you are suggesting?

[Michael Felton]

I think the issue with 1 as it is now is you have to pretty much hit it 240+ to have a view of the green past the trees. If you put a bunker out there that includes a layup as the option, you're removing the possibility of a view of the green. If you also take the trees down I could see it working, but if you take the trees down then there is nothing to stop you just hitting it out there from the tee. I like the concept of the fairway being widened on the left. It would end up similar to 7 in some ways. The further left you go the safer your shot, but the longer your approach becomes. I do wonder if you could take the trees out and replace them with a huge bunker that runs all the way along there. Make the fairway sufficiently narrow over the bunker that taking it on is risky. Then you could have that meet up with your bunker that's in the fairway.


15 you'd either need to do some serious earth moving or that fronting bit of fairway is going to be a tiny target. Likely not one you could reasonably aim at without risking putting it in the bunker anyway. Depending on how severe the fairway bunker is, I'm not sure you'd ever feel like left was the way to go. If the fairway bunker is fairly flat and you'd have a decent shot at hitting the green from it, then that sounds pretty good to me. Anything to make that fairway more hittable is good with me.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Is this kind of what you are suggesting?

1 looks pretty close. On 15 I imagine the bunker as shorter, but also IN the fairway. 15-20 yards of fairway left of it, 30 yards to the right of it. That way if you bail out to the wider fairway, your angle to the green is worse as you have to carry the front right greenside bunker, but you also have a longer approach shot.

I think the issue with 1 as it is now is you have to pretty much hit it 240+ to have a view of the green past the trees. If you put a bunker out there that includes a layup as the option, you're removing the possibility of a view of the green.

Remove some of the trees, then. Our goal was to make people have a choice of challenging the bunker by going over it, going left of it with a 3W, or laying back with a 4I or 3I or something, but having a much longer approach.

The thick rough tempts you not to just flare it right.

[Mark Fedeli]

Is this kind of what you are suggesting?

1 looks pretty close. On 15 I imagine the bunker as shorter, but also IN the fairway. 15-20 yards of fairway left of it, 30 yards to the right of it. That way if you bail out to the wider fairway, your angle to the green is worse as you have to carry the front right greenside bunker, but you also have a longer approach shot.

I like the fairway catch area short-left of the green. I'd like to see it run directly into the bunker beneath it, and the slope up to the green be fairly steep. This way, the higher up the slope you land (and don't make it on) the more momentum you'll have coming back down and maybe rolling all the way through into the bunker. So it "might" provide a safe haven, if you get lucky. Either way, it adds a bit of fun as you watch your ball bound around — something you don't get a lot of on BPB.

[Michael Felton]

The thick rough tempts you not to just flare it right.

Given the choice between 210 from the fairway or 100 from the rough, would that be a difficult decision? Especially if the 100 from the rough wasn't certain to be rough. You'd have a chance of fairway there too. I think good players would just play to the right if the trees weren't there. The pros were playing to the right even with the trees.

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Is this kind of what you are suggesting?

1 looks pretty close. On 15 I imagine the bunker as shorter, but also IN the fairway. 15-20 yards of fairway left of it, 30 yards to the right of it. That way if you bail out to the wider fairway, your angle to the green is worse as you have to carry the front right greenside bunker, but you also have a longer approach shot.

I like the fairway catch area short-left of the green. I'd like to see it run directly into the bunker beneath it, and the slope up to the green be fairly steep. This way, the higher up the slope you land (and don't make it on) the more momentum you'll have coming back down and maybe rolling all the way through into the bunker. So it "might" provide a safe haven, if you get lucky. Either way, it adds a bit of fun as you watch your ball bound around — something you don't get a lot of on BPB.

Perhaps like this?

[Michael Felton]

Is this kind of what you are suggesting?

1 looks pretty close. On 15 I imagine the bunker as shorter, but also IN the fairway. 15-20 yards of fairway left of it, 30 yards to the right of it. That way if you bail out to the wider fairway, your angle to the green is worse as you have to carry the front right greenside bunker, but you also have a longer approach shot.

I like the fairway catch area short-left of the green. I'd like to see it run directly into the bunker beneath it, and the slope up to the green be fairly steep. This way, the higher up the slope you land (and don't make it on) the more momentum you'll have coming back down and maybe rolling all the way through into the bunker. So it "might" provide a safe haven, if you get lucky. Either way, it adds a bit of fun as you watch your ball bound around — something you don't get a lot of on BPB.

Perhaps like this?

I quite like the idea of that bunker starting about 200 yards from the front edge of the green. That way, you have a third option of playing short of it. It would leave a very hard approach shot from presumably 210ish to the front of the green, up the hill. That's still about 250 yards out from the tips, so still a decent shot, but from the up tees would leave a question mark. Driver to take on the bunker or a long iron to leave you a fairway wood up the hill.

[Kalen Braley]

Given they won't fix the ball.....why not just put a tourney Tee on #1 20-30 yards back and 10-15 yards or so to the left up the hill to take away that angle(or at least help to) on the dog leg.  Use it whenever the big boys come to town 2-3 times per decade.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bethpage+Black+Course/@40.7421201,-73.4552148,128a,35y,39.52t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e82a90815eb571:0x6e5fa5f30f18c1e6!8m2!3d40.7457749!4d-73.4529097

[Bill Charles]

Now this is a thread I think everyone can appreciate. Any and all ideas above are so much better than what is currently there. Hopefully the powers to be see this thread and take action !

[Mark Fedeli]

Given they won't fix the ball.....why not just put a tourney Tee on #1 20-30 yards back and 10-15 yards or so to the left up the hill to take away that angle(or at least help to) on the dog leg.  Use it whenever the big boys come to town 2-3 times per decade.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bethpage+Black+Course/@40.7421201,-73.4552148,128a,35y,39.52t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e82a90815eb571:0x6e5fa5f30f18c1e6!8m2!3d40.7457749!4d-73.4529097

Might be tough with the grandstands on 18. They could go straight back with #1 tee to the putting green. You could get 40 yards easy on that line.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,


I was thinking they could consult with the R&A boys to come up with something....with a few of the tight tee boxes they've configured over the years with looming grandstands.


I do like moving the tee back near the putting green too... In pictures it seems like it'd be a bit similar to #1 at Riv, but just a guess!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Given the choice between 210 from the fairway or 100 from the rough

I think the difference is more likely in the neighborhood of 60 yards, not 110. And at 60 yards, the tradeoff is pretty equal for standard PGA Tour rough, so the thicker rough at BPB slants it back toward being in the fairway.

That's pretty close. Aren't the tees further left? You have them almost more lined up with the right side, I picture them as more lined up with the narrower left side, which results in choosing the fatter right side leaving a longer second shot in that also has to carry the bunkers.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

NOT to scale at all (quick sketch between some lessons):



Again, our idea was to have 15-20 yards left of the bunker, 25-30 yards right of the bunker. Right of the bunker would be a much longer second shot that also had to carry the bunker and stop on the green, left would be a shorter shot with a slightly forgiving fairway area that a poorer player (i.e. someone hitting a longer club in with a lower ball flight) could bounce the ball onto the green. It's still a tough shot, but it's made easier for them AND the better player who plays to the left of the near-centerline bunker.

Again, not to scale here at all, and I could see pinching the fairway in near the end of the fairway so it's more like 25-30 yards wide, too.

[Mark Fedeli]

Thought about this some more. I think a fairway bunker on 15 would be at odds with the hole and would distract from the big moment: the second shot up the hill. The second shot is the main event, and that fairway bunker feature feels like it'd be more at home on a short par 4 where strategy off the tee is the big ask. Just feels like a bit too much to me. I believe the only thing 15 truly needs is more width on the right, and I quite like the all-or-nothing nature of the second shot — kind of like the cliff hole at Biarritz. That said, Erik's idea is well thought out. I'd almost love to see something like it on 18.

[jeffwarne]

Thought about this some more. I think a fairway bunker on 15 would be at odds with the hole and would distract from the big moment: the second shot up the hill. The second shot is the main event, and that fairway bunker feature feels like it'd be more at home on a short par 4 where strategy off the tee is the big ask. Just feels like a bit too much to me. I believe the only thing 15 truly needs is more width on the right, and I quite like the all-or-nothing nature of the second shot — kind of like the cliff hole at Biarritz. That said, Erik's idea is well thought out. I'd almost love to see something like it on 18.

bingo-15 good with a little wdith
18 needs some help

[Mark Fedeli]

Thought about this some more. I think a fairway bunker on 15 would be at odds with the hole and would distract from the big moment: the second shot up the hill. The second shot is the main event, and that fairway bunker feature feels like it'd be more at home on a short par 4 where strategy off the tee is the big ask. Just feels like a bit too much to me. I believe the only thing 15 truly needs is more width on the right, and I quite like the all-or-nothing nature of the second shot — kind of like the cliff hole at Biarritz. That said, Erik's idea is well thought out. I'd almost love to see something like it on 18.

bingo-15 good with a little wdith
18 needs some help

I'd love to see people submit some sketches of their ideas for how to fix the 18th. That'd be a fun thread. I can't believe the powers-that-be decided last year to renovate it, and came up with the even worse version that's there now. I'd love an architect to weigh in on what was done. If distance and drama were the issues, why didn't they introduce some sort of hazard into the fairway, either crossing through or in the middle, like Erik's idea for 15.


Speaking of bad decisions, another curiosity is the modern evolution of the 6th hole. Taking on the left bunkers to reach the big downslope is one of the most exciting shots on the course, and that ability remained even after the restoration by Rees. However, for the 2002 US Open, rough was grown on that downslope, all but removing that option and forcing a lay-up. It stayed that way for at least a couple years after. Such a strange decision that shows just how much these courses will be negatively manipulated for pro events.


Photo proof from 2004, shortly before it was changed back to all fairway:



 

[Ben Hollerbach]

For 18, I'd like to see them create a tournament specific tee over near the 16th green. This would help to bring a bit of dogleg into the tee shot forcing the players to navigate the bunkers as they either try to play over the lefthand set or short of the righthand set. The new angle would also stretch the hole by ~50 yards.

Of course there would be some logistics issues when it comes to the 17th and 18th crossing and how you navigate the spectators in this area. And people would complain that they wouldn't get the chance to play the tee during normal play, but I'm ok with that.

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,

Can't say i'm a big fan of that criss-cross, but only for logistical reasons in a big tourney.

Edit: Never mind, looks like there is a big downslope behind the 18th tee..

[Ben Hollerbach]

I don't disagree that the crossover is not ideal, but as you pointed out its not possible to extend the tee back any farther. I would believe that the green could be moved farther back up on the hillside, but once again you create a logistics issue with reduced grandstand area behind the green. By moving the tee closer to the 16th green it would be possible to create a stronger finishing hole with little change to the current property and little lasting change on the operation of the course. Players may be upset that they don't get to play from the major championship tee, but if they want, the tee could be quickly "lost" between major events as to where people couldn't even find the location.


I know that it was previously proposed to build a temporary cross country hole from the 18th tee across the Red's first fairway to the Red's 18th green. I imagine one of the reasons that idea never came to fruition is the temporary nature of the hole, so it's possible that my solution wouldn't be accepted for partially for the same reason.

[Rick Lane]

For 18, I'd like to see them create a tournament specific tee over near the 16th green. This would help to bring a bit of dogleg into the tee shot forcing the players to navigate the bunkers as they either try to play over the lefthand set or short of the righthand set. The new angle would also stretch the hole by ~50 yards.

Of course there would be some logistics issues when it comes to the 17th and 18th crossing and how you navigate the spectators in this area. And people would complain that they wouldn't get the chance to play the tee during normal play, but I'm ok with that.

What if you reversed this idea and had the tee in the top left corner of your picture, near that par three green?