[Niall C]

Hmm, I'm probably going to regret getting involved in this but here goes..........

The Park's, Morris's, Dunn's etc did indeed use caddies for important matches but I've seen nothing to substantiate the notion that they used caddies for bounce games or practice rounds and these were the very best. The average professional in the latter part of the 19th century certainly wasn't flush with cash so the notion they took a caddy every time they went out to play is fanciful. After all, they also made money out of caddying so are they going to pay for a caddy, after they themselves have toiled to earn the same amount of money ?

The use of caddies was mainly restricted to the better off who could afford it. The hoi polloi meanwhile got by without, and yes the common people did indeed play golf back in the day.

At the main golfing centres such as St Andrews, Musselburgh and North Berwick, a large portion (probably the largest portion) of the caddies were made up of children. At other golfing centres it was nearly all children. Some of those children did play golf and became professionals but they didn't learn the game by carrying clubs for some old retired colonel but by actually playing about themselves. The reason they caddied wasn't to learn but to earn. It was that simple.

There was no need to caddy to be introduced into the game and that is very much the case today. As much as it has been romanticised and stories often repeated of Big Crawford, Fiery and the like, caddying has never been anything other than a luxury for the better off.

Niall

[corey miller]

Since I did not make post #28 I guess it was post #27 that was the offensive one that shows my obnoxious white maleness? 


A course can support some sort of caddie program while not precluding the ability of members to carry their own bag.  Is the "value proposition" in having a caddie so weak that members must be forced to have a caddie?






I think I will stand by the quote.  If the service were so integral to the running of a golf operation I would think the "professional caddie class" and the "white males" could get together and get everyone on the payroll? 

[V. Kmetz]

Since I did not make post #28 I guess it was post #27 that was the offensive one that shows my obnoxious white maleness?


First, it's obnoxious white male IGNORANCE, Second it shows as Reply 28 a moment ago; but THIRD, you're wrong anyway, because it's #38 later that drew my hat pin...where once I took the time to give detailed answer to 28, you prattled on mindlessly about browbeating, a scam, and how your self-absorption about you and your precious game bears no time for the human currencies that are transacted regularly and well between members and caddies...and have for 200 or more years. And you still haven;t answered any question regarding who is doing the browbeating?

A course can support some sort of caddie program while not precluding the ability of members to carry their own bag.  Is the "value proposition" in having a caddie so weak that members must be forced to have a caddie?

I think I will stand by the quote.  If the service were so integral to the running of a golf operation I would think the "professional caddie class" and the "white males" could get together and get everyone on the payroll? 


What does everyone getting together on the payroll have to do with "integral" or its historical permanence in the leading clubs? Or even as an tangent to Ran's list of conjured custodians?

But if you want the real answer to that question, ask your Board or Golf Committee or your club manager who will have to bring that payroll in line with the various benefits/legal duties "employees" are due, rather than as "independent contractors," un-tethered in an official, recorded capacity.

Still as I said, if you will make your views known to your host or your home caddiemaster, the caddies can be polled and I'm sure you can be released from this terrible duty of yours... we don't want to work for you in equal proportion to your disdain for us... perhaps, even more.

[Craig Moore]

There are 3 prominent courses/Clubs in Michigan that don't require members to take caddies, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, and Barton Hills.  Voluntary interactions are preferable imo.  Barton doesn't require guests to take caddies.  The biggest improvement in many yards is pre booking jobs, where the caddie doesn't have to spend all day in the yard waiting.

[Jeff Schley]

There are trail fees for those members who walk and carry their own bag at many clubs including one of mine. Not huge ($10), but it exists at some places where it decreases the delta from taking a cart/caddie to walk and carry.

[corey miller]

V Kmetz


Clubs do the browbeating, but I think you knew that and if the failing clubs in the NYC metro area (that advertise for memberships) are any indication one of the "selling points" is that caddies are not a necessity but rather a luxury.


If you want to address the elements of  the "scam" we surely can but I am sure that  we have a giant disconnect in that you seem to think (by virtue of the services provided screed) that just the pleasure of your company for four hours has a monetary component. 


That said, perhaps you are a superior caddie who deserves even more than the players are willing to part with but the fact is that part of the "scam" is that someone who hustles, and works hard and provides for every conceivable need of the player is only marginally compensated above the bag carrier. 


Yesterday I hosted three guests who offered to pay for their caddies and asked the fee.  Invariably, I give a number LOWER than the actual fee and compensate each caddie the rest out of pocket,  tacit admission that the "service" is grossly overpriced.


Why is it that guests (especially public players) always look askance when you tell them how much a caddie has just made for four hours carrying two bags? Actually 4.1 as the two bag thing really drags down the pace. 


I am sure my view on caddies is more aligned with Ran but I will always abide by the rules of the host club.  I can't comment on the value proposition of a service I pay for?  I guess you consider that I am making value judgments on people rather than a profession?   












   

[V. Kmetz]

V Kmetz

Clubs (WHY WOULD THEY IF THEY DIDN'T THINK AS A GROUP THERE WAS A VALUE FOR THAT CLUB?) do the browbeating, but I think you knew that and if the failing clubs in the NYC metro area (NAME THEM) (that advertise for memberships) (AND REALIZE THAT ADVERTISING FOR MEMBERSHIPS IS NOT FAILING) are any indication (THEY ARE NOT, AS I'VE NEVER HEARD OF A MEMBER OR PROSPECTIVE MEMBER ASKING ABOUT THE CADDIE POLICIES/PAY AS ANYTHING BUT A DISTANT ITEM, CERTAINLY NOT A DEALBREAKER IN ANY WAY...TO INSINUATE IT IS IS TO PROMULGATE A FALSEHOOD, AN INACCURACY, A LIE) one of the "selling points" is that caddies are not a necessity but rather a luxury.

If you want to address the elements of  the "scam" we surely can but I am sure that  we have a giant disconnect in that you (NOT JUST ME, THE 7500 OR SO DIFFERENT PLAYERS THAT HAVE WELL REWARDED ME IN SOME 3000 LOOPS IN 35 YEARS)...seem to think (by virtue of the services provided screed)  that just the pleasure of your company for four hours has a monetary component.  AGAIN, ASK THEM OR AT THE VERY LEAST, SOMEONE ELSE IN YOUR CLUB WHO APPRECIATES CADDIES


That said, perhaps you are a superior caddie who deserves even more than the players are willing to part with but the fact is that part of the "scam" is that someone who hustles, and works hard and provides for every conceivable need of the player is only marginally compensated above the bag carrier.  PATENTLY NOT TRUE...AS BOTH A VETERAN CADDIE AND CADDIEMASTER AT TWO CLUBS I'M AWARE THAT CADDIES OF A FIRST RATE NATURE ARE PAID 20 - 40% BETTER THAN THE RANK AND FILE... THAT IS NOT MARGINAL IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.


Yesterday I hosted three guests who offered to pay for their caddies and asked the fee.  Invariably, I give a number LOWER than the actual fee and compensate each caddie the rest out of pocket,  tacit admission that the "service" is grossly overpriced. DON'T EVER LET US HEAR YOU SPEAK OF A FREE MARKET AGAIN... AND FURTHER PROOF THAT YOU'LL SAY ANYTHING (e.g. 'LIE") TO EFFECT YOUR OWN SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG.

Why is it that guests (especially public players) always look askance (LIKE WE CAN REALLY RELY ON YOUR DEFINITIONS AND DESCRIPTIONS AND ACCURACY) when you tell them how much a caddie has just made for four hours carrying two bags? Actually 4.1 as the two bag thing really drags down the pace.  AND IF WE KNEW YOURS OR THEIRS OCCUPATION, WE MIGHT DO THE SAME...LAWYERS WHO MAKE $400 AN HOUR?... BOARD MEMBERS WHO MAKE 100K FOR EMAILS AND 4 MEETINGS A YEAR?... PROPERTY MANAGERS?  ATHLETES WHO MAKE $1000 PER MINUTE ...ETC... ETC...

I am sure my view on caddies is more aligned with Ran (GREAT, YOU TWO CAN HUG IN THE WOODS BEHIND THE ABANDONED CADDIE HUT) but I will always abide by the rules of the host club (YOU JUST SAID YOU LIED WHEN ASKED ABOUT THE RATES AT YOUR OWN FUCKING CLUB, YOU ABIDE NOTHING.  I can't comment on the value proposition of a service I pay for?  I guess you consider that I am making value judgments on people rather than a profession? 


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR BAG IS, BUT I DO KNOW THAT YOU AND RAN ARE BLISSFULLY IGNORANT THAT THIS IS A RICH WHITE MANS GAME (BELONGING TO A PRIVATE CLUB)...ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE... TO COMPLAIN OR DISDAIN OR CHERRY PICK OVER THE FEATURES OF THAT IS RANK HYPOCRISY...BOTTOM LINE...IF YOU  CAN'T TAKE THE MONEY (Init, Dues, Assessment, Dining Min, locker, bag storage, and yes, Caddies) YOU WOULD DEVOTE TO A PRIVATE CLUB EXPERIENCE AND THROW IT IN THE FIREPLACE... YOU OUGHT NOT BE THERE...YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPY COUNTING YOUR CHIPS AT A PRIVATE CLUB... IT'S ALL A LUXURY FELLA!

















 

[corey miller]

I am sorry that you work for people that you have such disdain for.

[V. Kmetz]

I am sorry that you work for people that you have such disdain for.

That's a lie too...

• you're not sorry
• most I have no idea what they do...
• they usually are not doing it for me... I have no cause to question it.
• i treat and regard people as they treat and regard me... I have been to scores of members homes, shared celebrations with them and run their fantasy football teams (among a lifetime's worth of rich association)......and they with me, sharing mine...

Any more lies and you'll qualify to be a Trump cabinet member

You are craven and deluded.

[corey miller]

Fantasy football? cool!!!!  you should have put that in the job description you offered earlier.  On second thought, with that feather in your cap, you are surely not overpaid. 

[V. Kmetz]

Fantasy football? cool!!!!  you should have put that in the job description you offered earlier.  On second thought, with that feather in your cap, you are surely not overpaid.

No I'm not... my fantasy management has earned 42k on 5.5 k invested in just the last 3 years....

[Kalen Braley]

I have no dog in the fight, I don't belong to a club and have only used caddies a few times, (mostly positive experiences and one bad one).


But I'm still interested in the rational reasoning for why taking a caddy should be mandatory at a club?  I may have missed it, but up until now the only thing I've read is some form of "Cause we said so". I suppose same could be true of carts, but at least they are inanimate and not subject to scheduling, calling in sick, being available, etc....

[corey miller]

To run a fantasy football team?


I think the basic premise is that clubs like to have caddies (too many clubs think carts are the only alternative to caddies) and that caddies will not show up if they do not have a high likelihood of getting out each day.   


At some places caddies  enhance the speed of play and help to maintain the course. 


 


 

[Rick Lane]

I think the basic premise is that clubs like to have caddies (too many clubs think carts are the only alternative to caddies) and that caddies will not show up if they do not have a high likelihood of getting out each day.   

At some places caddies  enhance the speed of play and help to maintain the course. 


 

Agree with this.   Also, for our club, there is also some altruism involved in funding caddie Scholarships, the Evans program, etc.  A lot of our caddies are kids from a tough neighboring town, and the members enjoy helping these kids get ahead.  That said, we don't force the use of caddies, we "strongly encourage" particularly on weekend mornings

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